The Son'a

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Romulan and klingon laws never applied? Really? And where did you get that - aside from your wishful thinking leading to hand-waving?

    The baku trespassed on a romulan planet - meaning romulan law was applicable.
    Then the planet became klingon - klingon law applied.
    Then the planet became a federation planet - meaning federation law applied.

    Now - about these laws:
    Adverse possession is a law mostly applicable in modern liberal democracies.
    Throughout human history, the majority of societies were oligarchic. Do you actually think the nobles allowed the peasants to acquire their land simply by occupying it? Good luck with that.

    Do you actually think klingon and romulan laws allow trespassers to acquire romulan and klingon territory by trespassing on it? lol
    Of course, the romulans and Klingons never found the baku, in order to conquer them, turning them into imperial subjects. So much for the baku not hiding (them hiding was even established in the movie - see below).

    Now you're walking the path of the legalisms, I see.

    First - that planet was NOT ownerless when the baku came to it. It was a romulan planet, then a klingon planet.

    Second - the baku actively tried to hide in the briar patch. NOT public possession by any standard.
    Even if the baku would not have actively tried to hide, they would NOT have exercised public possession if they didn't exercise even minimal diligence in making their claim known - as in, a beacon announcing their presence, or seeing if there are alien (romulan/klingon/federation) patrols in the area and contacting them; or contacting any ship they see in the area, exploring a little in order to ascertain the status of the planet, etc.

    NO public possession (no useful possession - this includes several more conditions) = NO adverse possession.

    And now, you've turned to stereotyping and simplistic straw-men.

    For example - Cestus III; the federation not enforcing a claim to that world would result in its strategic position seriously compromised, in possible millions/billions of federation citizens dead or conquered in the future. In these conditions, enforcing a claim to Cestus III IS the right thing to do.

    The powers in the trekverse - klingons, romulans, dominion, tholians, borg, etc, etc - make soviet russia or 'the hermit kingdom' look very tame. Some of them make nazi germany, the mongol hordes or 'insert the nastiest historical empire you can think of' look very tame.
    You think that, in that universe, not using real-politik at least some of the times (such as, when the future of billions is in the balance) will somehow turn your nation into a beacon of security and prosperity, as opposed to causing suffering and death for your people? lol.

    Of course, with the baku affair, the federaiton has BOTH the legal right and the muscle to enforce that right. And the moral high ground.

    PS:
    The baku were hiding in the briar patch from the universe, essentially (see their backstory from the movie, etc). In 'enterprise', the augments briefly contemplated hiding in the briar patch, as well - as the name indicated, it's a pretty good hiding place.

    Dougherty expressly told Picard the baku are not native and the prime directive doesn't apply. How did the federation think the baku got to the planet? Not specified in the movie; there are several possibilities: the federation knew the baku are not really primitive, aliens brought the baku there and then disappeared (this happens often in the trekverse), etc.

    Next time, watch the movie before coming with your unsupported claims.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  2. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I thought that Federation territory was just an area that Klingons or Cardassians or Romulans or whoever are not allowed.

    I didn't realise that every planet in Federation territory was under Federation rule unless they're pre-Warp. What makes the Federation different from the Klingon Empire then? Or the Vogons?
     
  3. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The federation is different from the klingons, romulans, etc because they don't go around conquering species, having an orwellian state complete with political police, etc etc.

    That does NOT mean that 600 baku trespassing on an uninhabited federation planet can claim it as their own.
    Much like cardassians, klingons or romulans trespassing on federation worlds can't claim them as their own. The federation might cede planets to them in certain conditions, rather than fight a war, though (which is about real-politik, not the laws in place).

    In general:
    Planets within federation space with indigenous conscious species are not federation planets.
    Uninhabited planets - AKA with no indigenous conscious species - within federation space ARE federation planets. Much like uninhabited planets within romulan or klingon space are romulan/klingon planets. Trespassers don't change this fact - even when they've been around for a while, hiding.
     
  4. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    no, that's not my problem. I think the Baku should have been openly told they were being removed. I don't care whether they wanted to negotiate or not, it's a planet in Federation space and the particles would benefit billions.

    I was merely responding to the frequently brought-up "but they were never asked" argument which is misleading and silly.
     
  5. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So if say the Earth wasn't in the Federation and had established a Mars Colony or an Alpha Centauri colony then the Federation could say blow Mars up or order 'us' off it if they felt like it because the humans on it weren't native and Mars as well as Earth is in Federation territory
     
  6. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Mars is in a solar system occupied by an indigenous conscious species - meaning, it belongs to this species.

    If Alpha Centaui belonged to aliens and we settled it then YES, they have the legal right to evict us if they 'feel like it'.
    And if the eviction of 600 human colonists from Alpha Centauri would help BILLIONS, then YES, they most definitely have the moral right to evict us from there.

    As for 'blow Mars' - that's just your attempt at a straw-man.
     
  7. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So you 'own' your own solar system but aren't allowed to establish any other colonies in the Alpha Quadrant unless you join the Federation, Romulan, Klingon or maybe Cardassian Empires.

    What if Earth.Gorn/Organian/Halkan don't agree to this division of the galaxy?
     
  8. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The answer to this question is obvious. So much so, I'm surprised you even asked.

    What usually happens when a state/group/etc doesn't recognise the sovereignty of another state over a territory?
    And has the power to enforce this position? War. Open any history book for examples.
    What about when it doesn't have the power to enforce its position? Police action.
     
  9. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Captain Captain

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    Please read more carefully. I said the Klingon and Romulan laws *were* never applied. The klingons and romulans never went to 'their' planet and kicked out the intruders. Probably never even bothered to check if there was anyone there.

    Klingon and Romulan law were never applied, and the Federation can hardly apply someone else's laws that it doesn't actually agree with 300 years after the fact. And the Baku claim to the planet is still stronger than the Federation's.

    Why are you comparing the Federation to medieval nobles and Klingon and Romulan laws? That's the whole point of this discussion: the Federation is supposed to be better than those institutions. Ie, to not 'legalize' kidnapping and conquest as legitimate means of territorial transfer.

    It was a Romulan planet only because the Romulans said, 'Hey, we claim that area of space'. There isn't a single instance of Romulan tech anywhere near it, so what did they ever do with it?

    It's every bit as legal a claim as the plots of 'moon land' that people have been selling for the past few decades.

    The planet exists in the Briar Patch. 'Hiding' by choosing to live in an area that just isn't heavily trafficked is barely hiding at all. If any of the three empires had actually sent any patrols anywhere near the planet they supposedly owned, they would have easily seen the Baku settlement, right out in the open without any kind of cloaking device. Clearly there were no patrols to contact - which again raises the question how the baku were even supposed to know the planet had been 'claimed' at all. Or are colonists everywhere now automatically required to set up beacons telling the world they're colonizing this place? In complete disregard for their philosophical beliefs re advanced technology, no less?

    A policy like this would never fly in the Federation. If anything it should be the claimant empires who aren't actually using the space they claim that are required to post notices that this area of space already belongs to someone.

    Which makes me wonder, even in today's world, how many people are ever actually convincted for trespassing on completely undeveloped land when the owner hasn't posted some sort of notice that that land is private property? I doubt very many. So the Baku probably weren't even trespassing even when they did first arrive on the planet.

    Clearly public possession. And exactly what conditions of useful possession would they not meet? They came to a completely empty planet and built an entire thriving settlement.

    According to who? Cestus III was just another colony. There's nothing strategic about it. Unless you're saying letting the Gorn win would just encourage them to attack later. But that clearly isn't a typical Federation concern (see the Cardassian demilitarized zone and the maquis).

    You can theorize all you want about real politik in the Federation, but the canon facts of the Federation itself don't agree with you. Why would the Federation take a hard line on such a relatively unimportant race like the Gorn, when they constantly bend over backwards to act righteously towards real agressors like the Klingons and the Cardassians?

    I don't believe they have any legal right, and they sure as hell don't have any moral high ground. Even if they did have a legal right, the law itself has limits. There are such things as eviction notices and appeals courts. Kidnapping an entire population in secret is blatantly detestable.


    So they were 'hiding' by just living out in the open in an area that simply happened to be a bit off the beaten path. Or, in other words, not actually hiding at all.

    The Baku didn't commit a single act of trespassing in the entire life of the Federation. They *were already there* before the Federation even existed.

    Do you actually have any canon to support this, or is it simply your own assumption based on your ideas of real politik?

    Regardless, I do have to point out that 'uninhabited' means 'uninhabited' - not 'no indigenous peoples'. You yourself pointed out that several alien races have been known to 'seed' people around the universe - and yet, none of those planets, which are clearly without 'indigenous' peoples, are ever treated as Federation property.

    Again, 'trespassing' is a false charge against the Baku, since their claim to the planet predates that of the Federation by centuries, and the Federation's claim is based solely on having bought out someone else's claim which itself was never enforced, whereas the Baku actually live there and use the planet.

    No, they absolutely do not have any legal right when their claim is based solely on random self-aggrandizement that has never been exercised. And they do not have any moral right to use force against a non-agressor, no matter how many people they believe it will help.

    And again, you're trying to turn the Federation into exactly what it is canonically stated *not* to be, just to make your argument make sense.
     
  10. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    grendelsbayne

    The law of a state governs the events happening throughout the jurisdiction of the state - even if it's not invoked the second the event took place. AKA even if you do not throw out the trespassers the second they trespassed, they remain with no property rights. That's law 101.
    AKA romulan law applies, klingon law applies, etc.

    The romulan/klingon/federation claim is supported by their power and recognised by the other powers in the quadrant. AKA as per the alpha/beta quadrants legal systems, their claim is valid.
    Comparing that to the 'moon land' claims of nobodys is yet another straw-men.

    The baku were HIDING in the Briar Patch. The situation says so, the movie said so, etc, etc. No adverse possession here. Deal with it.

    Trespassers are evicted, not convicted. Trespassing is generally a civil law matter (apart from a few forms which are crimes).
    Trespassers are evicted from undeveloped land all the time.

    The baku, as per property law, have no legal right whatsoever to the planet.
    And helping BILLIONS by evacuating 600 egoist elitists? The federation has the moral right to evict them, no matter how long you'll play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'.


    The canon facts state the federation kept the Cestus III colony - aka did not recognise the gorn right to it. They also expressly state the planet the baku trespassed on is a federation planet.
    That is the federation depicted in these cases - real-politik and all.

    You obviously want to turn the federation into a suicidal political entity that follows, with religious fanaticism, a set of rules you call 'moral' but are nothing of the sort (not evicting 600 trespassers to help BILLIONS? Really? To think you actually call that 'moral').
    Well, in all fairness, your depiction of the federation is encountered in a few episodes/etc - just not relative to the aspects under discussion here.


    PS:
    You have the right to your opinions, but not to your own facts.
    The opinions you repeat and repeat (the baku are not trespassers, etc) are based on nothing but hand-waving and rhetoric; as such, they have no worth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  11. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I also believe the Baku and Sona are not trespassing. They were there before the Federation, Romulan, Klingon empires were formed. When did they star trespassing - a hundred years ago, 50 years or when the Federation saw something it liked.
    Thats like saying the Australian Aborigines are trespassing on Australia in the British Empire. Aren't we better than that now?

    Saying that the Federation is a recognised power is correct but not by all. The Federation has 'rights' in the area relative to the Romulan and Klingon empires because presumably of military and political machination.
    So the reason that the Federation 'owns' this and every planet in its area of influence is not because of its high morals but because it has a lot of big guns. And although I hate to side with Picard (in just this one case) - the only thing that differentiates the Federation from the Klingon Empire in this case would be that the Klingons would kill or enslave the Baku where the Federation will just move them but to where? Some less liked planet. Somewhere out of the Federation?
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The ring planet was the Romulan Empire's territory at the time that the Baku arrived there. This comes from ENT during the augment arc.

    The planet and the entire briar patch changed hand a few times eventually becoming federation territory. In the movie, the Enterprise crew knew about conditions in the briar patch (no warp, reduced impulse speeds) so at some point the federation surveyed the patch (or someone did it for them).

    While true the federation hadn't formed yet, it's unclear if the Klingon Empire was already in existence.

    :devil:
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Um this is the reveant quote where they discuss the Briar Patch and I don't see anything about the Romulans being mentioned at all.

    In fact it sounds like the Klingons weren't that interested in the area at all either.

    Link: http://www.chakoteya.net/enterprise/82.htm
     
  14. Kirby

    Kirby Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe it's been covered, so my apologies if so. The Bak'u had about 300 Renaissance Festival villagers, and the Son'a probably even less, so why not just have the Son'a settle somewhere else on the planet and open up and lodge and spa for Federation people to absorb the radiation or whatever it's magical powers were? It makes more sense, and would probably be more effective than bottling the stuff.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As established in the film, the Son'a were too far gone for the normal levels of ring radiation to help them.
     
  16. Kirby

    Kirby Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^ Thanks. It's been several years since I watched the film. Hopefully several more before I do it again.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^I...kind of...want to rewatch the film, but I kind of want to do that only to determine whether I actually want to spend money on the soundtrack and kind of to see how well it holds up on DVD on my current television.
     
  18. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Best idea ever!

    And if the Sona are too far gone - well that's their own problem isn't it.
    Maybe this time I agree with the PD in not interfering with internal politics of a planet.

    If people say go to the planet, will they turn Sona like if they leave? I know Picard and his crew didn't but if they stay for an extended time?
     
  19. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Captain Captain

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    Klingon and Romulan law do not apply in the Federation. Federation law did not even exist when the Baku colony was created. There is no real jurisdiction here.

    This argument is, again, all good and well for Klingons or Romulans. The Federation is not based on power grabs.

    The Baku were PLAINLY VISIBLE from orbit. This does not meet any reasonable definition of hiding, no matter what the movie says. Deal with it.

    Forcibly evicted without any warning? From land that isn't anywhere near civilization and has no markings indicated it actually belongs to anyone at all?

    You continue to ignore the fact that the Romulans, Klingons, Federation could easily have known about their presence and that the Baku inhabited and *improved* the planet for three hundred years. Even by our (by fed. standards archaic) laws, their situation is not nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

    And our laws are not actually even a legitimate basis for Federation protocols in such a situation. We're talking about an alien species who don't even necessarily know the Romulans exist colonizing a planet which is clearly uninhabited with no indication whatsoever that anyone has claimed it.

    Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.

    And it remains extremely suspect for dougherty to claim that these particles would even have such a major significance for the Federation. 24th century medicine is pratically miraculous already. The only major benefit the particles would bring to most people is an extended lifespan, in an age where people live beyond 100 already. You don't get to evict entire civilizations just because you want to stay young longer.


    Because the Federation had actually colonized the planet and the Gorn hadn't. Not real politik. Adverse possession.

    That is Dougherty's statement, is it not? A starfleet admiral is not the Federation's deciding authority in these matters.

    I'm not turning the Federation into anything. I'm describing the Federation we've seen across hundreds of hours of television. You're inventing your own preferred federation that is never shown on screen.

    And ignoring anyone's rights is always wrong. Period.


    My opinions are fairly well supported by my arguments. Your opinions continue to be unsupported due to your repeated refusal to actual specify any of the specific reasons why the Baku are so 'obviously' trespassers or to adress in any meaningful way the clear differences between their extraordinary situation and your earth-based rules which were designed in a society where everything is much closer together and there is no possibility of outside parties who have no knowledge whatsoever of the overarching society that enforces the rules.

    PS: After seeing the post above, re: ENT's augments episode, I checked that Ep's transcript and the Insurrection transcript for the word 'Romulan'. Unless my computer search function is broken, the word doesn't appear at all in the ENT mention of the Briar Patch and only appears in one conversation in Insurrection, where Picard and Dougherty are discussing the potential for technology to empower thugs.

    So, it would seem, unless you have another source for the Briar Patch's provenance, that you are the one inventing your own facts with the repeated claim that the Patch clearly belonged to the Romulans when the Baku settled there.
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    grendelsbayne

    Your arguments consist of unsupported dictums, straw-men and rhetoric.
    For example:
    You really need to read up law 101 - the law of a state applies to events happening in its jurisdiction, even if it's not invoked the second the events happen. This law is binding to other states who recognised the first as legitimate - it's irrelevant whether the latter states existed or not when the events took place.

    Adverse possession requires, beyond public possession, the exercise of this possession for a period of time (at least decades). Plus, other conditions.
    No adverse possession for Cestus III. Or for the Briar patch.

    'Insurrection' expressly stated the baku were actively hiding in the Briar patch. Dougherty said the planet is the federation's (and was not contradicted by Picard, who would have contradicted any statement contrary to fact/law). Everyone mentioned how the particles will help BILLIONS.
    But, because they destroy your argument, you pretend these canon statements don't exist, yes? And you actually claim your opinion is supported by 'arguments'. lol.

    I would go on with listing your so-called 'arguments' were it not obvious you would just come with a different batch of dictums/straw-men/etc.

    lol.
    You must really hate eminent domain.

    As for the rest - there are other opinions. For example - a 'moral code' such as the one you're advocating, that allows for so much suffering and death to occur and calls this 'moral' does NOT deserve the name 'moral'.
    It reminds me of those religious fanatics who came with ~'Kill them all. God will know his own' during the dark ages.
    Who cares about inflicting unfathomable suffering and death when you can say you followed the 'moral' - or religious - rule to the letter, yes, grendelsbayne?

    PS:
    Interesting.
    For this discussion, irrelevant, though.
    From the premise 'every non-suicidal political entity scans the systems it allows to enter within its borders', it follows the briar patch was claimed by an alpha/beta quadrant power before it got trespassed by the baku. Afterwards, it got transferred to the federation - either directly or through a chain of intermediaries.

    Really? You actually come with such a statement in a post filled with facts you invented in blatant contradiction to canon? After admitting you barely even remember 'Insurrection' whose minutiae you were discussing?
    Your statement is quite amusing - unintentionally, of course.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013

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