The Son'a

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    the Baku knew exactly why they were being moved.(the conversation between Picard and Anij at night in the village makes that clear) Their answer was obviously "no," the writer just didn't want them to have to say it explicitly.
     
  2. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So your problem is that they didn't sit down and negotiate with people who had pretty much made up their mind to kidnap them and pretty much steal their planet?

    Thats called not being a moron.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If that's the case, seems a bit petty to use that as your reason for not allowing millions to suffer less.
     
  4. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So you want them to trust people who have no problem kidnapping them to get what they want and may or may not actually be operating with their government's sanction.

    Not to mention that the federation probably already has the technology to save these millions (which by the way is probably way smaller than the federation's total population what with Earth having a population in the billions alone so it seems not everyone gets the fancy medical tech).
     
  5. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn't like the Unabomber manifesto type Baku myself. The Son'a and their subjugated assistants were supposed to be Americans with a love of cosmetics--but you could also make them into private property type tax protestors, so you can go either way politically.

    One way or another, I bet James Cameron watched it, and was a fan of Bakshi's Wizards...

    Avatar, anyone?
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If the Federation already had the tech to save the people in question why would they be pursuing this to begin with?

    And I think that that the Baku should be enlightened enough to look past the apparently poor execution of Dougherty and Ru'afo's plan and look at what at least Dougherty's intentions were.

    Or is this analogous to the idea that any medical gains made through questionable means should be summarily discarded?
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The term use in the movies was "billions." So Hartzilla2007 the particles will help multiple billions (let say just two billion) and there are 150 members in the Federation. That 13 million plus people average per member species who would be helped by the new treatment.

    If the Federation had other treatments, they would have already have been use to help the affected people.

    But hey, 13 million here, 13 million there, what's that next to 600 people wanting to hoard the particles solely for their own exclusive use?

    Whose planet? Oh that right, the Federation's planet.

    Nor did at any point did the Baku offer to help anyone. As mentioned before, they would have figured out fairly quickly that there was something special about the planet, they were capable of warp travel, and they told no one.

    No one.

    My impression is that the curious idea to employ the holoship was entirely the Federations. The Sona certainly didn't seem to think it was a good idea in the movie.

    And no the Baku shouldn't have been covertly moved, when the Federation moved the Baku it should have been done openly.

    :)
     
  8. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Surely just being in Federation territory doesn't make every planet in it under the control of the Federation. The Federation is not a military dictatorship, is it?

    And surely after 300 years the Baku and Sona have some rights to their planet which should be recognised no matter how inconvenient?

    I see to remember some episodes in TOS where the Federation wanted some dilithium or herbal medicines or strategic value from some planets but accepted it when they said No. Have things changed by the 24th century?
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The transporter has been used to de-age people and re-age people.

    The federation once developed a process that could create planets from nebulas and even raise the dead.

    A scientists once came up with the ability to transfer his consciousness into an android body, and then he dumped his brain into the Enterpise's main computer meaning replicating the process likely isn't impossible.

    If it wasn't for the federation's laws against genetic engineering they they could allow people to live twice as long with their own science.

    According to Pulaski LaForge's sight might have been restored by existing federation medical science.

    They developed a replicator which could replace organs, bones, and other tissues.

    Not to mention all the super science they pull out of their asses to resolve whatever problem they had to deal with that week.

    So yeah I don't buy the writers belief that the federation couldn't do this on their own after a little scientific research.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That would seem to be a fault you're finding with the writing of the film itself, not the in-universe scenario we're asked to accept.
     
  11. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No it's still hard to accept in-universe when you remeber that Genesis ressurected Spock and de-aged him into an infant as it means the Federation already had the technology to make a fountain of youth.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except that all evidence is that either Genesis was ultimately considered a failure or the research was discontinued, much like Excelsior's version of transwarp drive never made another appearance in the TOS series of films.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A change might have occurred yes. However, the planets you seem to be referring to were not within the federation, owing to possessing a indigenous to that world population. The federation might (or might not) completely surround that world and it's star system, but the world itself wasn't within the federation's territory.

    The ring world (per Picard) was in fact within federation space, this is made clear in the movie's dialog.

    If the planet is physically within federation space, then yes. But if a planet is simply with the greater area of the federation's "boundaries," that would not necessarily place it within federation space.

    The ring world (per Picard) was in federation space.

    It difficult to see how 600 people living in a single valley could then claim a entire planet. If the Sona thought themselves to have legitimate rights to the planet, the federation wouldn't have been involved.

    The group consensus tends toward a no.

    :devil:
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The movie specifically said it was a federation planet. Apparently, it was transferred from the romulans to the klingons to the federation (and the romulans had it from before the baku's arrival).
    The baku are trespassers who came to the planet and then did everything they could to remain hidden. Due to being hidden, this will never give them adverse possession, regardless of how long they stay there.

    For a comparison - you have a huge palace, but don't use it much. A trespasser comes there and intentionally stays hidden while using it.
    Do you think this person can rightly claim any property right to your palace?
    Do you actually think the society who doesn't recognise this trespasser any rights to your palace in these conditions must be a military dictatorship or oppressive? lol. I beg to differ.
     
  15. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    An inhabited planet can't be 'in federation space' in the way you're suggesting unless it has chosen to be part of the Federation.

    The 'borders' governed by treaties between interstellar empires/alliances exist for determining whose ships are allowed to go where (which doesn't apply to the Baku) and for confirming which uninhabited planets belong to who (which also doesn't apply). Inhabited planets clearly do not 'belong' to a government unless that government actually has control of them, which under Federation law is only possible with the democratic consent of the inhabitants. Dougherty's scheme is pretty clearly illegal, whether the inhabitants are indigenous or not. (300 years of habitation, in fact, clearly predates any claim the Federation could ever make, since the Federation itself isn't even 300 years old)

    How many Federation, maquis or Klingon colonies have we seen with ridiculously small populations? Of course 1 community living on an otherwise uninhabited planet has a legitimate claim, because they live there and no one else does. That's like saying my wife and I have no legitimate claim to our house because it was built for a family of four instead of just two.

    The Sona likely wanted the Federation's blessing because they intended to build an actual space-going society, at which point the fact that the location is recognized as supposedly 'federation' space could become potentially problematic for them (despite the fact that their claim would still predate the Federation itself). Or they just wanted to hide behind someone else's coattails rather than dealing with their people themselves.

    On a related note, it's been a while since I've seen this movie, but wasn't there a suggestion at some point that the fountain of youth particles wouldn't actually work anywhere other than the briar patch? Meaning Dougherty's coveted miracle treatment would be entirely useless in the federation at large...
     
  16. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    A deleted scene in INS which involved Riker and Troi in the library; Riker says something to the extent that the Son'a came to the Federation for assistance because the planet is in Fed space. So legally the Federation would have jurisdiction over the planet. This could explain the collaborate agreement between the Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo. The Son'a filed all the legal paperwork and went through the proper channels seeking Federation help. The Federation would've gained technology and the methods to replicate the metaphasic particles of the planet for collaborating with the Son'a.

    On the surface it seems legit. The Son'a however neglected to mention that the 600 occupants of the planet were their relatives.
     
  17. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The baku didn't do anything to remain hidden. They just lived there, for 300 years (longer than the federation has existed). If the Romulans or the Klingons claimed this planet, they clearly never, ever used it, making the palace in your analogy completely abandoned for several lifetimes, which means, yes, it pretty much is fair game for any squatter who shows up. Their claim is perfectly legitimate. More legitimate, than, for isntance, the Romulan claim to Remus.

    In point of fact, pre-existing but unexercised land 'claims' are almost always nullified by simple possession. Australia was originally New Holland, but the Dutch never exercised their claim, so the British took it. The same for New Zealand. Prior to the British, French and Dutch explorations, international law and treaty stipulated that ALL undiscovered lands in the world belonged to Spain and Portugal.

    And if you don't believe any of this applies, explain why the Federation colony on Cestus III still exists in the 24th century, despite it having been previously claimed, but never settled, by the Gorn.
     
  18. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

    The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

    Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
     
  19. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The baku did all they could to remain hidden - even said so in the movie.

    Hardly.
    Legally, possession nullifies unexcercised property only through the institution of 'adverse possession' (look it up, grendelsbayne). One of several conditions is that the possession is public, as opposed to hidden. And that this public, useful possession is exercised for a specific period, etc.

    The baku acquired nothing by adverse possession. The planet is still federation property (and romulan and klingon before it - and before the baku settled it) regardless f how long the baku stayed hidden in their hole.

    Because the federation had the muscle to enforce their claim as superior to the gorn.
    BTW, that's how the British took Australia and New Zeeland, etc. The Dutch simply had the common sense to recognise the british claim and renounce their own, as opposed to refusing to let go of their claim and starting a war with THE superpower of the day.

    As for the baku: 600 people do not get to make their own laws and claim they have priority to the laws of the state they live in. Or do you think a neighborhood association does have such competency? lol.

    Without any power to strongarm their claim, all the baku have is the alpha/beta recognised treaties/laws to appeal to. And these treaties/laws are clear - the planet is federation property - as EXPRESSLY said in the movie.

    PS:
    Have you even watched the movie, grendelsbayne?
    Or do you blatantly contradict it knowingly, because the movie does not support your claims in this thread?

    BTW, the federation knew the baku were not native - as Dougherty even expressly said. Meaning - the prime directive is not applicable - again, as expressly said in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  20. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Like I said, it has been a while. Could you provide some kind of quote regarding that. Because if they were trying to hide, they weren't doing that great a job of it, as I recall. How could they even attempt to hide themselves without using any advanced technology?

    Demanding someone go out of their way to tell you they're living on your planet when they don't necessarily even have any way to know you claim the planet at all, since you're not doing a damn thing with it, isn't reasonable. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that you're living there and can clearly be seen living there (the Enterprise never had any problem picking up their settlement from orbit, did it?) is clearly open. And we've already covered the fact that the baku were exercising useful possession of the planet for longer than the federation has existed.

    Because the federation had the muscle to enforce their claim as superior to the gorn.
    BTW, that's how the British took Australia and New Zeeland. The Dutch simply had the common sense to recognise the british claim and renounce their own, as opposed to coming with a treaty and starting a war.[/quote]

    The Federation isn't an empire that delights in enforcing its claim by brute force.

    The Federation laws you would apply to the Baku didn't exist when they arrived. I'm fairly certain Ex Post Facto is as taboo in the 24th century as it is today. The Romulan or Klingon laws were never applied. And the Federation's claim to the planet clearly assumed the planet was uninhabited, which it was not.

    ETA:
    Then I misremembered that. I've been entirely open about the fact that I haven't seen the film in quite a while. If I had a copy, I would rewatch it before continuing the discussion, but I don't.

    So how did the Federation believe that the Baku were supposedly so primitive, knowing that they had actually immigrated to the planet relatively recently?