The Red Federation ship in Into Darkness

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Leathco, Apr 25, 2014.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Eh, it's just dramatic licence for an "OMG WE'RE GONNA CRASH!!" moment. It's the size from the chart when they leave spacedock.
     
  2. saddestmoon

    saddestmoon Commander Red Shirt

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    Not to be that guy, buuuut... there was a thread started by myself on this topic: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=213985

    Just thought it could be useful to link to it, in case it helped with this discussion.

    :) Personally, I still find the mystery red ship fascinating...
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    There's the further issue that the giant piece of saucer they collide with is in a different orientation from the much smaller one they first spot. And no, there's no time for the saucer to rotate that way.

    We could well be talking about two unrelated pieces of debris here, one from the smaller ship of unknown name that came from Earth, the other from the much larger Mayflower of some other design that was already at Vulcan and was destroyed by Nero some time before the others.

    As for red ships, I rather like the idea of garish identification colors, strictly for use in times of war (which is why we never saw them in TOS or closely related spinoffs), and abandoned well before the TNG era.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. Enterprise1701

    Enterprise1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It occurred to me that it would just be unfair that Vulcans get a Starfleet vessel of their own with their cultural colors just because of the destruction of their homeworld. By 2259 in the Abramsverse there's got to be dozens of Federation species. Lots of them have suffered various cataclysms at some point. So Vulcans only have a uniquely colored starship? No. Plus Vulcans don't show their emotions and have no need for pity.

    On the other hand, I think I would accept it if the next movie had blue-hulled Starfleet vessels and a good explanation for them.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Well, IMO the colour is simply the result of Vulcan metals being used and not paint. No more special than the ENT-era Vulcan ships being red (and in fact nice continuity)
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    A diplomatic vessel, perhaps (thinking of the cruiser in Phantom Menace.)
     
  7. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    That means this is the 3rd thread on this subject. I posted a link in another thread, memory-alpha's entry on the Armstrong, which mentions a "brown hull variant" to the class.

    ETA: here it is - http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=228211&highlight=brown+hull

    Now I too am "that guy" :lol:
     
  8. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Here's one idea:

    The recent Enterprise: Rise of the Federation novels by TrekBBS's very own Christopher have established that the early Federation Starfleet was formed by amalgamating the existing space forces of the Federation's founding Member States, and making them each divisions of the larger Federation Starfleet:

    - United Earth Space Probe Agency (formerly known as United Earth Starfleet, renamed for clarity), specializing in exploration
    - Vulcan Space Council, specializing in scientific research
    - Andorian Guard, specializing in defense
    - Tellar Space Administration, specializing in operation support and supply
    - Alpha Centauri Space Research Council, specializing in planetary research and funding

    The implication in these books being that these early divisions of the Federation Starfleet persisted long after the Federation had become culturally and legally unified enough that the early planetary names ceased being meaningful from the perspective of either crew makeup, operational ethos, or general political allegiance. Hence why the Enterprise in TOS was said to be part of UESPA.

    So, using this, my pet theory for the red starship is this:

    Maybe the Armstrong (I'm just going to call it that for the sake of this post) is part of the Vulcan Space Council division of the Federation Starfleet, and was therefore, as King Daniel into Darkness postulates, constructed from metals available in the Vulcan system as a result.

    My further hypothesis:

    Maybe part of the reason the Constitution class in the Alternate Timeline looks different is that it was designed to place more operational emphasis on defense? Perhaps the Alternate Universe USS Enterprise is actually part of the Andorian Guard division of the Federation Starfleet instead of the UESPA division.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If we'd actually seen any Andorians on board, I might consider it. ;)
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, but by the 2250s, these old divisions may be more organizational differences than reflections of actual crew complements.
     
  11. Enterprise1701

    Enterprise1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not to mention that by 2259 the Federation has got to have dozens of species. A different color for every species would be a logistical nightmare.
     
  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also, this is a hundred years after the founding of the Federation. Any differences between divisions would have probably evaporated by that time.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or maybe they used Vulcan rocks, that would account for the red color.

    Some species ships might not be a solid color, programming/changing the color might be as simply as flipping a switch on the bridge.

    The Enterprise "refit" wasn't exactly one solid color, it had that aztec pattern.

    [​IMG]

    Don't know about that, we're talking about entirely different species, each of whom possesses very different cultures.

    :)
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ A hundred years is a long time. Having separate fleets may have worked - may even have been necessary - back in 2161, but they don't need it after all these years.

    Besides, for in-universe purposes, I'm not seeing the reason for having ships be a certain color anyway. Starship crews detect other vessels by looking at sensor readings, not peering out a window. If a starship is red, the only ones who are going to even see that red are US, the viewers of the film. So I can't think of any reason to have that ship be red other than it simply looks cool.
     
  15. Nightfall to-Ennien

    Nightfall to-Ennien Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Perhaps, in-universe, it could be some sort of experimental hull coating? Perhaps for low-observability, or something like that?
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would disagree, from what we seen of the Humans on the show, they don't seem (at least on the surface) to have somehow "melting pot'ed" into a single culture and consciousness with the other Members of the Federation. They have remain distinctly Human.

    Perhaps a hundred years (or a thousand) isn't all that long.

    Add to that the Federation is (my interpretation) alway changing in size, and not every Member has been with the organization for a protracted period of time.

    The same reason they bear different identification numbers directly on their hulls?

    A few times on the show Starfleet vessels have been ID'ed solely through those markings.

    Add crew esprit de corp, and unit cohesion. Also species pride in their peoples participation in fleet activities.

    :)
     
  17. captainkirk

    captainkirk Commander Red Shirt

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    To give a real-life example, I live in South Africa which over the centuries has had people from many countries settle here. There were Dutch, French, English, Indian, and of course all the native people. It's been way more than a hundred years and so you might expect it all to be one big happy family. But that's not really true. For the most part people of the same culture prefer to stick together. I would expect that when you've got people from different planets that it would take a very long time for them all to be completely comfortable with each other.
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Of course, the difference is that South Africa was settled by colonial powers and was then subject to a system of racial-economic apartheid, rather than being settled through a process of mutual consent and egalitarianism from the start. A system whereby the involved parties voluntarily join together as equals could create a great deal more mutual assimilation and syncretism.
     
  19. TwoJakes

    TwoJakes Commander Red Shirt

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    In America, while people are politically Amerians, there is a on-going distinction of people by the language, religion and culture of their origins. In Miami simply by looking at the people on the sidewalks and listening to which language is being used you can tell which part of town you're in.

    Many of my coworkers are Vietnamese, even those who are third generation American are fluent in the "old language."

    A old friend seeking to purchase his first home looked exclusively in the Cuban section of town. It's where he wanted his future children to be raised.


    Dispite obtaining a membership in the Federation, there wouldn't automatically be a pressing need to assimulate with the cultures of those who came before you. As stated above the Federation needn't be a melting pot.


    The Federation might not have a "Federation culture" in any real sense. Nor would there be any expectation of such a culture developing in the Federation's future.


    Tuvok was a Vulcan, not just biologically, but socially and culturally.
     
  20. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    It's a fiery demon ship set forth from the depths of Hades itself to revenge itself upon all the Trekkers who didn't like the movie.

    Alternate view: A rust bucket training ship?

    RAMA