The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Dream, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I "understand" all of the above in the sense that I see how B follows from A, but I still think it's awful to reuse a "climax" explosion in a big-budget film. It was disappointing enough in the later episodes of DS9, but to do it in a movie? Ugh.
     
  2. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It would have been cheaper to renovate the standing sets to work on film than to destroy them and build new ones, so that's one excuse that doesn't stand up.
     
  3. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    By this point in Generations, I just didn't care. :(
     
  4. EyalM

    EyalM Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They could have saved the money spent on those costumes they ended up not using..
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I noticed the recycled explosion, but I was still :cardie:ing at the "full spread" the Enterprise fired which consisted of a single photon torpedo.

    It's Star Trek, and endlessly recycled footage was the norm back then. IIRC, the Enterprise-B at warp near the start was actually a reused shot of the slightly-different USS Excelsior from STVI.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, why the E-D even needed to drop the BoP's shields is a mystery to me.
     
  7. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^^ Agreed. A Galaxy class arsenal should be able to overwhelm the defenses of an old out-of-service BoP.

    I also thought, if they're going to recycle stock footage of a BoP fighting and defeating the Enterprise, why not recycle stock footage of a Vorcha instead? But I guess that had to do with TV versus Cinema technical details.
     
  8. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was ILM's decision to scrap the D. But I seem to recall hearing them say that it wasn't an easy model to work with. Of course, they did some of the original model work for "Encounter at Farpoint," but I don't believe they were the ones who built the model and they didn't work on TNG after the pilot.

    I just get the feeling that different effects houses have their own unique ways of making motion control models and that ILM didn't care for the way the A or the D were designed.

    Also, I understand what you're saying about the challenges of going from a 1980's/1990's television resolution to a feature film. However, I disagree that the Enterprise-D sets weren't up to the challenge. Certainly the sets and lighting would need some modifications. But I think they could have functioned fine. The fact that they are able to go back to the original film elements and produce a high definition Blu-ray transfer that looks fantastic is evidence of the fact that the sets possessed a decent level of detail and quality.

    On top of which, the Enterprise-D felt like home after seven years of TNG. The Enterprise-E was just another ship. I think the emotional connection would have made it worth making the upgrades to the existing sets and models.

    I hadn't thought about Stellar Cartography in this discussion. That's a good point. It was an impressive set, and certainly different from anything else we'd seen on the Enterprise-D. But was it worth all the money that went into it when it served no purpose other than to add a bit of a "wow" factor to a scene that lasts only a matter of minutes? Since they were destroying the ship at the end of the film, they knew that set would never be used again. So why prioritize that expense and then have to go chopping away at your climactic battle?

    Even still, my priority wouldn't have been avoiding the re-use of the BoP shot, but re-directing that money to other, more story-oriented items. Heck, even spending the money to add a few extra phaser or torpedo shots to the battle between the Enterprise and the BoP would have been effective in making it seem a more reasonable fight.
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly I never got why people obsessed so much over the graphics. Sure they can enhance an episode or film but they're not going to define it. I really didn't care that they recycled the Bird of Prey exploding. How many angles do we have to see it blow up from? I didn't mind the Dominion War recylcled footage, there's a budget and the point it gotten across. Neither took away from the plot, which is what makes an episode or movie good or bad.

    Honestly I think if they just flipped it so the BoP was angling the other direction fewer people would have even noticed. Generations was a bad movie. But not because of the explosion. If we went by flashy graphics being the end all, Enterprise would be the best series and Nemesis the best movie.
     
  10. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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    Agree.:vulcan:

    Agree, the Vorcha would have been a much more believable opponent to a Galaxy class flagship.:shrug:
     
  11. AggieJohn

    AggieJohn Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    That did seem like a horrible send off for the D. I never liked that ship but even I think a old BoP was in bad taste. I totally agree that a Vorcha would have been a better choice.

    I hate how popular the BoP has become considering that 1) it was supposed to be Romulan but they changed the script to STIII. 2) It is completely wrong for the design concepts of the Klingon Empire, which appeared more a drab gray look with the, in my view iconic D-7 battle cruiser. 3) leads to a weird issue with the mega BoP battleships the size of the Ent D as well as the little ones. I know its a cost thing but still. If they were really hard pressed for a cruiser model they could have considered pressing the D-7/ STI&VI model into service. They used the Miranda & excelsior models.
     
  12. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What makes the BoP explosion stand out is that it explodes in a unique fashion. It's not a model with an explosion graphic slapped over it. The model is blown up in sections, bit by bit. It's actually a pretty slow destruction, made to milk the visceral impact, the immense high in TUC as torpedo after torpedo hammered the damned thing at the end of a one-sided battle. It's extremely distinctive. And when it was first shown in theaters in 1991, the audience cheered. I got a tingle of excitement for years rewatching that. It was perfectly done and intentionally created to have this effect on people.

    Then, the next film uses the exact same shot and it stands out (to fans) because of what I described above. It wasn't just another ship being blown up, it was the emotional climax of the previous film. Because of this, what should have been a fist pumping climax in GEN just deflated.

    It would be as if a refit Constitution class ship was destroyed in Star Trek 4 and they just reused the Enterprise destruction shot. There would be bitching about that as well, and, IMO, rightly so. Flybys and establishing shots are fine to reuse. Shots that are used to climax a major action sequence really should be new. Even if it doesn't kill the film, it does say "cheap."
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well-said.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because the BoP explosion is what ruined the film... come on the graphic effects are the frosting not the cake.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No single element can ruin a film for me, usually. But it did take me out of the film and damage my experience.
     
  16. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Who said it ruined the film? I grew up on the original series; reused effects (or even bad ones) don't ruin a film for me. However, using that shot pulled me out of it for a second. I explained why. Awesome that the reuse didn't phase you, but everyone's different.
     
  17. indianatrekker26

    indianatrekker26 Captain Captain

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    If there was any shot that bugged me the most in Generations, was when they showed the Enterprise B flying by at warp. And it was stock footage of the Excelsior warping by the screen from Trek 6. I know why they did it, to save money on a 3 second shot.
     
  18. xvicente

    xvicente Captain Captain

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    Why people can't accept easily that the E-D could be shot down by a Klingon Bird of Prey, while as we already had saw, the original NCC1701 was?

    These things are dangerous.

    PS. also Grisson in the same movie. Even their gunners can't control their awesome power. ("One lucky shot")
     
  19. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Actually the 6 ft model WAS built by ILM.

    It wasn't designed by them and I guess they weren't too thrilled with the colors and the profile (who was? remember Doohan's comments about it?), but shooting it was not a problem, except for the fact that so much detail was basically applied with chalk and would come off (which was more of a problem over time, and why ILM did a pretty heavy-duty repaint for GEN.)

    Make no mistake, though, they really did demolish the paint job on the refit for TWOK. When you first start seeing ILM shots (rather than stock reuse of Trumbull TMP shots) in TWOK, it is when RELIANT is sneaking up on them, and the ship looks like going to warp knocked all the paint off while scratching the surface something fierce.

    In one of those shots where ENT is foreground right while RELIANT is bg left, the paint job really looks like an Estes Rocket I had that I launched with an "E" engine (super-powerful.) It went up glossy white, and came down a LONG time later and that sucker was practically grey. Reinforcements stripped off the fins, and the only reason I got it back at all was the chute didn't come out, otherwise I think it would have drifted for miles. I think it was a replica of the NIKE-X for those who would care about such things.)
     
  20. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I think the right expression the OP might have used is "Salt in the wound" It doesn't make the whole movie bad, the rest of the movie did that. Or good if you liked it. It just made that climax of the battle very anti climactic.

    And this is why it's anti climactic. Thank you, ssosmcin.

    I noticed it immediately, and now when I watch either movie it's hurts both.