The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, May 14, 2012.

  1. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not at all, because it would just be Picard acknowledging that the original Enterprise was a Constitution-class starship and telling Scotty there was one in the Museum.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    And that would be, ahem, highly misleading, because Scotty's fantasy ship would not be in the Museum at all. Scotty is directly asking "are you familiar with what I'm simulating here?" and Picard makes it sound as if he is saying "yes, I am, because we have this in the Fleet Museum", even though the answer must really be "no" if the Fleet Museum specimen is of the refitted sort.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There's nothing misleading about it at all and the rest isn't even an issue in their discussion.

    Both the original and refit configurations are considered Constitution-class.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Which would be a technicality Scotty would be quite annoyed with - he didn't want any "bloody A" to mar his trip down the memory lane.

    The fact is that Picard would know nothing about Scotty's dream ship if he were only familiar with the refitted Constitution class: the refit created an "almost completely new Enterprise" as stated in ST:TMP, a ship unrelated to Scotty's simulation in anything but name.

    From Scotty's POV, Picard is being a pal. From Picard's POV, he's telling a (rather white) lie if he has visited a refitted museum piece.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Doubtful and unlikely the case. If anything, Scotty probably has more memories with the refit version of NCC-1701 than the original (presumably 15 years versus 5 years). It wouldn't take away Scotty's joy of seeing the older configuration after so many years, however.
    I don't believe this is a fact at all. The only thing we can say with any certainty is that Picard saw Scotty in a holodeck simulation and correctly surmised it was the original Enterprise bridge, Constitution-class.
    Not really.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Irrelevant when we see what he has deliberately chosen as his preferred mode of entertainment.

    Unless we speculate that he really wanted the refit -nil, and didn't have the guts to contradict the computer when he realized he had not been sufficiently specific. But that doesn't sound like our engineer at all, especially not when he's loaded.

    Decker did, and Kirk showed him to be right. Any connection between the two incarnations of NCC-1701 is semantic at best.

    Scotty specifically asks Picard "You're familiar with them?", as regards the Constitution class. Picard doesn't say yes, but he says there is one in the museum. If Scotty takes that for a yes, and the museum piece is a refit, then he's being had. And if Picard intends for this to happen, he's lying for a cause.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, his preferred mode of entertainment is irrelevant since the holodeck program simply showed him a configuration from Kirk's time (likely a historical default selection because of the 5-year mission).
    Um, no. Outside of TMP, there has never been a distinction between the original and refit configurations of the Constitution-class, and even then it was a case of the ship having been recently reconfigured. Otherwise, both versions are considered Constitution-class and onscreen material has backed that up more than once (in Star Trek VI and in TNG).
    Actually, it really only means that Picard is familiar with the Constitution-class and that he knows there's one in the Fleet Museum. The one in the Museum would still be a Constitution-class if it was a later version of one so there's no lie there nor an issue of semantics.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Why, the Enterprise might have been the first Constiution Class ship to have gone through the refit process. After which Starfleet could have determine that it was more efficent to just build new ones from scratch rather than refitting exisiting ones, and just retired the old configuration ones. Placing one in the Fleet Musuem.

    Or they simply wanted to preserve one as it was.
     
  9. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think if there was any ship they would have done that to, it would have been NCC-1701. Otherwise, it makes more sense to put one of the last Constitution-class ships in the Museum once they all started to be retired from active service.
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Why? You could argue that if the Federation PR machine made something out of the Enterprise's 5 year mission under Captain Kirk. Rather than retiring it to put into a muesum. They refitted it so they could say the Enterprise is contining in her mission. When Kirk became Captain again after the V'ger incident it was just icing on the cake.

    If Kirk hadn't borrowed the Enterprise in TFSF it was likely it would have been put in the Fleet Museum
     
  11. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You proposed that Starfleet would put an early model Constitution-class ship in the Museum just prior to the design's upgrade. NCC-1701, returning from her five-year mission, would be the best candidate (the Constitution-class would still have undergone an upgrade regardless).
    It may very well have been something Starfleet was planning at the time.
     
  12. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^No what I actually said was that the Enterprise might have been the FIRST to undergo such a refit. Following that refit Starfleet might have decied that it wasn't cost effective to upgrade further Constitution Class ships in the same manner, and simply retired them when they returned from their missions FOLLOWING the Enterprises refit.
     
  13. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^
    You're then proposing that the Enterprise was the only (or one of only a few) Constitution-class ships to be upgraded and the rest remained in the original configuration.
     
  14. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    No they were retired as no longer fit for purpose. Ships have a finite life, before they become obsolete or no longer cost effective to retrofit them to extend their active service life.
     
  15. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But it's possible that other Constitution-class ships were upgraded as well. I could see if the design was already beginning to be phased out by the time of Star Trek III, but the refit the Enterprise underwent in TMP may have extended the life of her sister ships for another 20 years or so as well (making the design upgrade worth it).
     
  16. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    True, but the refit took what 18 months? If you could build a brand new ship in less time than that. Which is more efficent?

    Yes the refit time might have come down with further refits, but the same could be said of building a new ship.
     
  17. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not really. Picard might have visited it once years ago and just have a hazy recollection of what it looked like. Why assume that people in tv shows and movies have perfect recall at the time? All he might have recalled is that it was a museum piece and more old-fashioned than the ships he's used to in the 24th century. I doubt that Picard spent as much time noticing all the details the way that fans who have re-watched all the tv episodes and movies have.

    If, for example you saw an old fashioned car from let's say the 1940s at a car show, then, years later, saw an upgraded version of the same model from the 1950s, would you recall all the differences? Or would you just say, yes, I've seen one of these before? (Assuming you're not an obsessive car buff!)

    As it happens, I think that the writing was intended to suggest that Picard had indeed seen one that looked like Scotty's recreation. But I still think it's perfectly valid to suggest that he could have seen a refitted version and just have said 'Oh, yeah, I've seen one of these babies before.'
     
  18. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Part of that 18 months included a redesigning (and likely R&D of new systems) phase of unknown length that wouldn't be necessary for subsequent ships. Subsequent upgrades could be accomplished in less time.
    It may really be just as easy (if not possibly easier) to upgrade an existing Constitution-class ship than to build a totally new one from scratch. Of course, with an existing ship, you've already got a basic spaceframe already in place for modification. After the incorporation of the already proven newer systems and hull components, the rest would be a matter of cosmetic changes.
     
  19. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Given the visual evidence between the Mk I and Mk II Constitution Class it seems as if they basically gutted the ship all the way down to almost the bare spaceframe. It was hardly a cosmetic change.

    Given the extensive nature of the refit, it would appear you have to do double the amount of work that a new build would have. Givven the fact that you first have to take apart the orginal ship.

    There seemed to be very little left of the orignal ship, that was visible at least.
     
  20. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So is there an original unfit Constitution class vessel in the museum?
     

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