The OFFICIAL STNG Next Level Bluray watch and review thread

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by RAMA, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. 22 Stars

    22 Stars Commodore Commodore

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    The proposed project YOU are talking about would cost twice as much or more to produce. The only reason they did TOS-R that way was because the classic vfx negatives didn't hold up to the HD transfer, and they didn't have the uncomposited masters.

    Sorry but those are the facts. Would I like some new fx shots in TNG-R.... YES.... will there be some.... YES.
     
  2. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    This, Ladies and Gents, is what it looks like when someone misrepresents what your saying to make whatever point they feel like. Look and learn.

    This is a really weird argument. Why not then change the costumes? The actors? Redesign the ship if you want something new? Write new scripts? At this point why don't you just make a new show?

    I like new stuff. I watch new series all the time. But when I want to watch TNG I want to watch TNG, just like I want to watch any other movie I've already seen.
     
  3. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm watching mine on a Samsung 51" Plasma with a Panasonic Blu-ray Player that are both less than 6 months old and both have the latest firmware. The two devices are connected with a v1.4 certified HDMI cable.

    I also tested it on my PC, which has a Core i7 Processor, an ATI 5970 card hooked up to an LG 23" LCD via DVI cable, and an LG Blu-ray burner with the latest firmware.
    I notice the same thing on the PC as well. It's clearly the film transfer, because in special FX scenes there is zero grain, and it's actually quite jarring to switch between the two.
    Surprisingly, Encounter at Farpoint is the episode that suffers the least from this problem.
    Even if it's not exactly what I was hoping for, I'll take what I can get :)
    That would have worked for me beautifully. I wanted to see what the writers/producers intended, NOT the same old shots that were done on a limited budget, but redone in HD.
    This reminds me of some of those older games (like Halo) that were never meant to be played at 1920x1080, but with hacked ini files you can force it. While it improves the jaggies a little, it's still easy to tell how the low res textures are being stretched to the higher resolution, and still looks dated. This is somewhat the feeling I get when watching these remastered episodes.
    I don't get this line of thinking. If there is nothing to "fix" then why bother? Most people can watch their DVD's upscaled and be happy. I was showing my dad the different in quality of my EaF episode on my old DVD's as compared to the new remastered one. While the first impression we both got was how much crisper it looked, after the first 15-20 mins it wears out, and doesn't seem like a huge reason to spend $100+ for season sets that we already have. We have the TOS HD because we never bought the originals before, only knew them from watching them on TV, and there is SO much changed in them that the purchase was totally worth it. I'm not so sure about TNG if I base it on what I've seen here in these episodes.
    This is unfortunately the feeling I'm getting as well. They went ahead and CGI enhanced the Jellyfish, and the particle beams, and practically every effect. Why could they give us a little more where the scene just doesn't work as well. It doesn't have to be every episode either, just the ones where they *clearly* wanted to do an action shot but the budget didn't allow it.
    I seriously hope Yesterday's Enterprise isn't the same awful static shot of the Enterprise firing one phaser beam at the Klingons. I hope they do a bit more. I hope redemption shows more than 3 of the 30 ships heading off to the blockade. But I get the feeling this is exactly what's going to happen :(
    All I want to see is what the original team originally intended but was unable to show because of budget reasons. I'm sure in Tin Man, the explosion of the Romulan ship was meant to look far more impacting than what basically looks like a 2ft model being blown up (the quivering of the ship always makes me laugh because it looks like it's taking a shit and struggling for it to come out). I'm sure the "evasive maneuvers" in The Survivors were meant to be more elaborate than the ship slowly doing a 180. Etc etc.
     
  4. NewHorizon

    NewHorizon Captain Captain

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    That's kind of the point of restoring the show from the original negatives. :sigh:

    New worlds and civilizations? I would love to see that...so they should make a new show. Maybe they should re-edit the episodes, dub over the lines and change the stories too so we're not bored?

    Plenty of that going around already:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xfCKXnyD-4&feature=player_embedded

    I'm interested in the show being restored, not hotrodded.

    ...and, it has been pointed out many times already, the process for TOS:R was vastly different to what is being done for TNG:HD.

    The TOS episodes were "finished" edits. NO 'raw' effects elements existed. The original effects elements for TOS were long lost. All they could do was scan the finished edit and try to clean it up slightly. Since the same film shots were used over and over in TOS, eventually the shots were in such bad shape that by the end of the series they were scratched to heck. There was no way they could use those for HD. They had no choice but to CGI the entire run of effects. If the non-composited effects had existed, they could have done the exact same thing they're doing now. Scan all of the raw elements, recomposit them with modern compositing techniques and use modern software to enhance the lighting...etc. They could even have replaced the old planets with nicer looking ones like they're doing with TNG....but, we would have had the original model work...only better.

    TNG:HD is a different matter. The finished edits of each episode only exist on low resolution video tape. So, they have to drag all of the film canisters up from the salt mine storage facility. Scan the negatives, re-cut EVERY episode to match how they were edited 25 years ago. Loop all of the dialogue and music, then finally recomposit the filmed visual elements and finally re-create any of the effects that were CGI. Essentially, the show is in post production again 25 years later. To expect them to create both a CGI enhanced version on top of what they're already doing is pretty unrealistic. If they were to CGI everything as you would like them to do, then all they would have the resources to give us would be a seamless branch to the original effects, upconverted from the old video tapes, and that would look like ass. They have a group of 20 people split into 3 teams working 8 hour shifts around the clock to get two seasons finished a year. It's a huge effort.

    Well, that's pretty insulting to me personally and completely untrue.

    I embrace change when and where it matters most. I simply don't have any interest in replacing the effects in a 25 year old television show, especially when the original film negatives exist and can be recomposited to look better than they ever could have 25 years ago.
     
  5. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TOS-R was hotrodded.
     
  6. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've just watched Encounter and Sins, and I'm positively giddy about the experience. It's just incredible how well sets, wardrope and make-up designed for NTSC hold up to HD, and the textured film look triggers those memories of cinema that elevate the events to a whole new level dramatically.

    The new sound mix is equally terrific, making clear little nuances that I never noticed before, like the transition from the saucer separation to the Picard/Riker conference scene - notice how the music blends over to the tingling of Picard stirring his tea with a metal spoon.

    Next up is Inner Light, which should be incredible.

    Personally I have no problem whatsoever giving them $100 per season or more for this, the value is there :).
     
  7. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    That's George Lucas talking, as well as Steven Spielberg before he realized how ridiculous that is. The thing is, more tech doesn't make things better. TOS-R looks terrible. It's not better than any other fanish, amateur stuff on YouTube.

    You also have this odd idea about "original intention". Everything has an original intention. Who's intention are you going to go back to? The writers? The director? The FX guy? The compositer? When you make a building the thing in the architect's head is different than what he draws and what the engineers, planning commission, and general public allow to get made. Original intention is nonsense. What appears is built from ingenuity, skill, imagination, and love. I doubt anyone on the TNG crew walked away day after day seriously thinking "if only!". They would commit suicide if their lives were that bleak.

    If you're not into HD, that's fine. Don't buy the set. Your DVD's are great. This is a wonderful excuse for you to not spend anymore. For a lot of people, just like anyone who bought 2001 on tape, DVD, and finally BR increase in quality is plenty enough reason to pick up a set.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  8. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^ This.
     
  9. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If they sell for around $80 each they got me as a customer. More than that and I'd have to think about it. I'm already bored of the 3 episodes I have so far, once the novelty of watching them in HD wore out. Up to $100 and I will probably choose the better seasons to buy. If they actually charge more than that, well, I will probably pass on it considering what I've seen so far.

    Maybe it is, because I happen to like the additions to the original SW Trilogy. Not all of them. The Jabba scene in ANH was completely out of place and unnecessary. I could care less who shot first, Greedo or Han. His character grates me anyway. Other than that I can't think of any major scenes that were out of place. I loved the extra Millenium Falcon shots in particular. If wanting a similar treatment to TNG makes me a Lucas fanboy, then I guess I am :)
     
  10. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, personally I rewatch individual TNG episodes relatively frequently. Really, Star Trek is my comfort food; when I get stuck at home with a nasty cold or whatever, I pop on Trek episodes :). And obviously I'm going to prefer the HD version to the DVD version for doing that in the future.

    The other reason to buy it is voting with my wallet: I'd like them to get filthy rich from making TNG-R, so we get a DS9-R and a VOY-R.
     
  11. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, you were the one going on and on about the importance of the "original work." All those other effects ARE the original work.
     
  12. DostoyevskyClone

    DostoyevskyClone Captain Captain

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    Right on. There's not another show close for me that matches that 'feeling' I get from TNG. Talking about the negatives of this new release makes for better conversation in some ways, but I was tempted to post something a few minutes ago to just say how damned grateful I am that TNGR even happened. I've been reading the original TNGR thread and was reminded in a post by Tosk about what a far-fetched improbability this seemed several years ago.

    You and I had briefly 'talked' about doing a poll/polls Sho, which I'm still interested in. In fact, I've learned that a Pre-Poll thread can help, since the original poster can leave out/forget to include certain things. Feel free to message me if you'd prefer.
     
  13. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think we could have seen a better reimagined TNG as far as FX work was concerned. It seems most of the purists are freaking out that we want to add a Jar Jar Binks to every scene in every episode, which is just ridiculous :rolleyes:
     
  14. Captain Fine

    Captain Fine Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Anyone notice that SotF had the Paramount sound playing over the CBS logo at the very end?

    The CBS logo seems out of place to me. The show wasn't made by CBS. Put the Paramount mountain back!
     
  15. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In terms of criticism, I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said before. Yup, the opening shot of Sins is odd with the moving starfield but the absence of any perspective change on the ships. And yeah, the energy beam shot in Encounter stands out as terrible. I hope we'll see improved versions of both in the full season set. But if not, I can forgive that, too.


    There's a bunch of questions we have to find answers to for the "poll project":

    • Do we care to fashion the polls in such a way that I can extract the data for a page like the one I made for the TrekLit reviews?
    • Because if so, we need per-episode polls, which requires per-episode threads. Which begs the question whether it's too late now that we have this thread for the entire sampler. And later, when full season sets arrive, what are we going to do then - open 22/26 threads at once? Hrm.
    • What do we want the polls to be about? They have to pose a clearly defined question, not something vague enough to fit both "how did you like the ep?" and "how well do you think it was remastered?".
    • The poll question and response options also should be fashioned in a way that allows comparisions between threads.
     
  16. NewHorizon

    NewHorizon Captain Captain

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    Yup, and I didn't buy it because the work lacked proper direction. The work jumped in both quality and style from episode to episode. If the original TNG masters for all of the effects were lost, like they were for TOS, I would accept CGI replacement....however if the quality was of TOSR quality, I would pass on buying it.

    For the record, if Daren Doctorman had been involved in TOSR, it would have been a far more visually cohesive project. He knows how to get the TOS look with CGI...just like he and his team were able to replicate the filmed footage for STMP DE.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVv0Va5K0vk
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    :techman:
     
  18. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The opening to "Sins of The Father" did look odd, but I wonder if that is because CB didn't have a chance to get Paramount to send over a film/HD version of the effect shot in STIII, since in SOTF & " Matter of Honor" both reused shots of the Bird-of-Prey from the movies, especially the shot from II where the Klingons have just disabled the Enterprise, but in TNG the movie Enterprise was replaced with the D. It's just like what they did in the Binus episode with the D docking at star base.
     
  19. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The shot looks odd because it replicates the style of the original shot. The first few years of TNG had an unfortunate habit of doing space shots where the stars move a lot even if the ship doesn't. But everyone seems to be acting like this is new. :)
     
  20. NewHorizon

    NewHorizon Captain Captain

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    Yeah, I Know. The original shot was weird like that too. lol