The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 30, 2009.

?

Grade the movie...

  1. Excellent

    707 vote(s)
    62.7%
  2. Above Average

    213 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Average

    84 vote(s)
    7.5%
  4. Below Average

    46 vote(s)
    4.1%
  5. Poor

    77 vote(s)
    6.8%
  1. lexington1709

    lexington1709 Ensign Red Shirt

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    Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Well, I got to see the new Trek film the day after it released here in Korea. I caught the late show with some friends… surprisingly, the theatre wasn’t crowded and most of the people were Americans. Unlike most, I cannot make up my mind if I liked it or not (it may be because I’m coming off a head cold and the meds are still with me). So, I’m going to go watch it again when it makes its rounds at the base. But here are my likes, dislikes, head-scratchers, and unresolved questions so far.

    My dislikes:
    First off and main point of contention, I hate the new Enterprise design!! This ship is as bad as Archer’s Akiraprise! It’s like it cannot make up its mind to be the TOS or the TMP Enterprise and certainly one of the worse ever for Trek! Matt Jefferies and Andy Probert have got to be spinning in their graves (and Probert’s not dead yet!) at this abomination. Either revamp the TOS or TMP ship but don’t blend the two together, please! Did I mention I hate this design?

    My second biggest point of contention is the ending. Kirk was a CADET throughout the film and now he gets the Enterprise? Does this mean that if I go through the Academy in three years, I can get command of the Lexington when I graduate? What crew are you going to ‘assign’ to serve on a ship with an inexperienced, devil-may-care commander? I was about beside myself when I saw them hand over a brand new ship to a wet-behind-the-ears, cocky-as-hell kid like Kirk. God help Starfleet.

    Too many plot elements from Star Trek II appear in this film. Khan was brilliant but you can only reuse it so much before you cheapen the original. Okay, you want to give the bad guy some motivation but how many times can you use the old “you killed so-and-so, so now I’m going to get my revenge on you” bit? And what was with that parasite thing? Come up with something a bit better, will you and let Khan remain the masterpiece it is?

    I cannot stand the engineering sections. Did JJ or any of his team actually visit a Navy ship? Apparently not; like Russ, they seem to be more from a factory than a starship’s engine room. And what was with those flight decks? Those two areas should look like the rest of the ship’s interiors.

    The bridge and other interiors will take some time to get used to and to be honest, I’m not wild about them. Again, JJ and his team actually should have gone to see a US Navy and a Royal Navy ship to get an idea of how things work on combatant ships. To me, it seems like Apple’s iPod team designed these interiors; was Steve Jobs the prime contractor?

    I am not a fan of the mini-skirts as uniforms. Back in the 1960’s, it was acceptable. Today, I don’t think it’s even appropriate. If you’re going to re-imagine the franchise, I think this was the one thing we could have done without. Get rid of them. Women don’t need to show their legs to get ahead. But at least you did away with the tight catsuits.


    My likes:
    I’ve had one major point proven for my Lexington series and it came in the opening sequence. George Kirk and his wife were serving on the same ship and she was pregnant. At long last, Alex and Angelica McKnight serving together in our Lexington series has been validated! :) JJ, did you look at our website? LOL!

    Most of the battle sequences were, on the surface, cool but until I see it again, I can’t give a full analysis.


    • Both the Kelvin and Enterprise seem to be almost over-gunned, yet were getting their asses handed to them almost too easily. For that amount of weaponry, they should have been kicking ass, not getting it kicked.

      Shields seemed to be sub-par. In TOS, they were tough SOB’s that were hard to knock out. Here, seems like even a screw or nut could take them down easily.

      I like the idea of intercepting incoming torpedoes with mini-phasers (someone has to have watched seaQuest DSV); it makes sense. It’s a lot like a Starfleet version of CIWS. It’s a good idea.
    Kirk’s reaction to McCoy’s medicines was pure TOS comedy but it seemed almost on the edge of being over the top. And it was nice to see McCoy bend the rules for Kirk.

    Lots of references to TOS in this film but not so many that you had to be a fan to understand them. Nice job there.

    The music was good, though a bit Battlestar Galactica (Sci-Fi)-like. I got the soundtrack and it’s solid. Not like Goldsmith’s fantastic TMP score or Horner’s unforgettable ST II themes but it holds its own. A bit more attention needs to be paid here the next time.

    The use of rock and roll in the soundtrack was a good move and it’s the second thing this film validated for our Lexington series. I’m happy with it. :)

    The acting was good overall.

    • Chris Pine did well in bringing a young Kirk to life. A little too cocky for me but overall, did a good job. But, is “Archer-itis” kicking in? Seemed like Kirk was taking a beating a little too much and a bit too quick to get into a scrap.

      Zach Quinto did well, though I’m not sure if I like Spock’s ‘just under the surface’ emotional control. He reminds me a lot of Saavik in Star Trek II. Should this be with Spock too? Guess we’ll see in the sequel.

      Karl Urban needed a bit more screen time to flush out McCoy. From what I saw, Urban had Kelley down cold. I did like the divorce backstory; for years, it was only rumor. Now it’s canon. Good work there. DeForest Kelley has to be looking down and smiling.

      Simon Pegg was absol-freaking-utely MAGNIFICENT. He’s easily my favorite character in this new group. I’ve always like Pegg and to see him in this role was a pure joy. Too bad he comes in about halfway in the film but he makes the most of the time he does have. Jimmy Doohan would have been proud of Pegg. More Scotty next time!

      Zoe Santana did well and this time around, Uhura did a lot more than “Hailing frequencies open” and showed a communications officer is just a bit more than a glorified switchboard operator (see Angelica McKnight). Just tone down the sex appeal a little and we’re good to go there.

      John Cho didn’t have enough screen time to really give me any sense of Sulu but the sense of being underused is still there. He’s a good fighter and better than Kirk in some ways. Maybe after the second viewing I’ll get a better idea of the character.

      Anton Yelchin didn’t do so hot in my opinion. Too much emphasis on copying Walter’s accent and trying too hard to be the comical relief. Yet, it was nice to see Chekov in action in the transporter room. I think he needs to work on the character a little more before the sequel.

      Bruce Greenwood as Pike was absolutely freaking FANTASTIC and my second favorite character. Jeff Hunter was too stiff in the role back in the day. Greenwood brings the dignity and poise to pull off the part of the experienced starship captain. Whoever casted Greenwood in this role needs a generous bonus added to their paycheck. Bring him back in the sequel!

      Eric Bana as Nero was almost one-dimensional. He did wonderful as Hector in Troy but to see him in a role without much meat was almost painful. He needed more to work with in the character. The character was almost predictable. I didn’t feel any pity or sympathy when Kirk blew him to hell. It was almost like, “Yeah, Nero bought the farm. So what?”

    My headscratchers:

    When the Kelvin rammed Narada, why didn’t the explosion finish Nero off right then? Yes, I know it would have made for a very short film and yes, I know the warp drive was off-line but reality can be suspended only so much. The antimatter fuel is still there and at no time was there any mention of ejecting the bottles. There also would have been enough residue in the engines to make a thermonuclear explosion a certainty. Also, why not arm the self-destruct package to make sure you take him with you? My belief has been if you’re going to go down fighting, make sure to take the b****** with you.

    When Uhura was ordering some drinks at the bar, she mentions a Cardassian drink. This struck me as being out of place and odd. They’re a post-TMP / TNG race. Do they even fit in this series? If so, why not bring in some Ferengi or Bolians?

    Drilling from an orbital platform and to have the business end dangling from a miles-long hawser? Not only is it unpractical but very unsafe. When cut, the resulting detonation could have sent back a feedback loop in the system, almost assuring destruction in minutes. A better bet would have been to use a penetrating torpedo to detonate when it reached the planet’s core.

    What’s with the Delta Vega bit? Delta Vega was never near Vulcan! So to strand TNG Spock there to see Vulcan destroyed is a bit like sending me to Antarctica for a tropical vacation. But it did make for a good introduction for Scotty.

    Uhura and Spock? Spock is supposed to keep his emotions under control. Now he’s trying to score with Nyota and show it so openly? And Kirk’s all over her too? I’m not sure if I see this just yet, so the jury’s out on this one.

    Spock from TNG is now stranded in this alternate universe? He’s from the future so why not use the Guardian of Forever to return to his proper time and universe?


    Unresolved questions:
    One time, it was stated the Fleet was engaged in so-and-so sector. Is the Federation at war? Where does it fit (aside from being a plot device for Enterprise’s commissioning) in the grand scheme of things?

    Will Admiral Pike remain in the wheelchair? My hope is not; the character deserves something better.

    Will TNG Spock be able to get home? I don’t like the idea of leaving him stranded in this universe, especially after all the man’s gone through.

    At the very end, we see Pike in a very TMP-looking uniform. Does this mean we’ll see the monster maroons or some variation? Will we go to those awful-looking TMP uniforms or will we see the TOS uniforms remaining for some time?

    At no time was there a mention of to what class the Enterprise belonged. Are we sticking to the Constitution-class nomenclature or is it the often-debated Enterprise-class? Just bugs me not to know for sure what class this is.
     
  2. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

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    Dec 30, 2002
    The Kelvin incident would've changed everything that Starfleet did. They thoroughly got their asses kicked and would need to be better prepared for the dangers of space than they thought they were -- design ships differently (and take more time to get it right, such as with Enterprise), add some academy courses, maybe cut some academy courses, alter their idea of what it means for a cadet to graduate, maybe increase the military aspects, etc. And their different approach would catch the attention of people who wouldn't have been interested in Starfleet otherwise, would cause some interested parties to turn away, and maybe the cadets would have a different education path than they otherwise would've gone.
     
  3. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    Victoria, Australia
    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    I was going to make a grumbling comment about people thinking their opinion deserves its own thread, but this is quite a comprehensive and intelligent summary.

    I certainly agree with you about Kirk's ridiculous rank-jumping and was equally impressed with Greenwood.

    Probably best to see it again before deciding whether you like it - I loved it originally and liked it less and less the more I thought about it, so it'll take another viewing to get settled.
     
  4. Thespeckledkiwi

    Thespeckledkiwi Vice Admiral

    The movie was outstanding and though McCoy didn't look like McCoy, he acted like him and that was what mattered. It was just an outstanding movie and a lot of fun.
     
  5. Jim Steele

    Jim Steele Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm quite miffed that every time I express my opinion of this film (when asked) people seem to completely ignore what I've said and go on a whinge about how I'm seeing the old series through "rose tinted glasses" and how I can't expect the new film to be Wrath of Khan.

    I'm talking IRL here.

    I'm thinking, I've just said I admired their balls in effectively scrapping the canon. I think it's a good move. No, I neither know nor care whether or not the stardates match up. I'm judging the film on its own merits, not based on how it fits with a dead 20th century science fiction franchise that a good chunk of the new film's audience are barely old enough to remember.

    Argh. And I see some of the same attitudes displayed in here. I know there are people blind bashing it - forget them. Some of us though just didn't like the film as much as others and we all have our reasons. Is that so hard to accept?

    Sincerely,

    I. B. Miffed, Hertfordshire

    (Seriously, I found a lot to like about the film, but as a whole it just didn't mesh for me, and there were some glaring utter stupidites. Nero was the shittest Trek villain since the last baldy Romulan cocksucker.)
     
  6. Roshi

    Roshi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Jim Steele, I think among all those people who disliked the movie, you're the only one who came here to express your opinion but DID NOT engage in a pissing contest like 99.9% of the naysayers. I greatly respect your opinion (always had AAMOF), it's refreshing.
     
  7. El Chupacabra

    El Chupacabra Commodore Commodore

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    Nobody got upset over my review a few pages back. It think its possible to dislike the movie without getting having to fire shots at people.

    Back on topic, I think its really quite refreshing the amount of people who dislike this movie. I was concerned that I was the only one to have had some problems with it, but that other people do, and many of them the same, I feel quite pleased that I am not alone.
     
  8. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    No-one has been able to clarify why the fuck everyone thinks Khan was so bloody brilliant. He was a bad captain who made all the wrong decisions, had no idea when to shut up and was too self-absorbed and plain stupid to keep his intentions a secret until nobody could stop him anymore.

    His crew were moronic evil minions and he was an overlord with a grudge. His motivation was pretty far-fetched: it wasn't Kirk's decision to maroon him, much less his job to babysit the man once he got dumped on Ceti Alpha whatsitsnumber. It was his own fault, because he was too incompetent to get the job done in the first place. Fat lot of good his supposedly superior intellect did him. He didn't actually come across as being smart at all. Sure, the Feds abandoned him, but his being beaten was his own fault and he must have known that.

    And don't get me started on the monologues.

    I can relate to Nero, I sure as hell can't relate to Khan, like, at all.
     
  9. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    To be fair, they are fighting a ship from 150 years in the future. I'd like to see a ship from 1858 take on a fully equipped, modern-day aircraft carrier. And not get its every defensive measure blown through like a lightsaber through butter. In the Kelvin scenes, the crewmembers are freaked out and comment that it's as if their shields aren't even there.
     
  10. El Chupacabra

    El Chupacabra Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Can I please ask that this be moved to teh grading thread? I posted a long review as well but there's no reason a long review shouldn't go in there just the same as a short one.
     
  11. lexington1709

    lexington1709 Ensign Red Shirt

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Granted, they were fighting someone from the future but those shields still should have taken more than one shot. Take TMP. V'Ger has a 12 power energy field behind its weapons but the Enterprise shields held against two full salvos.
     
  12. El Chupacabra

    El Chupacabra Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Khan was a stand out villan because he had depth and could be understood. He was after Kirk for a very personal reason and that was emotionally realised on screen, unlike Nero. You say he made all the wrong decisions and was a bad captain. He couldn't have been that bad if he took over the Reliant and stranded her crew. But his errors highlight a very important part of the character. He egomanical approach is what was his undoing. He let vengeance consume him but refused to realise it because he thought he was smarter than everybody else. I think the real difference is in portrayl. Montablbans role was well written and well acted and had a great deal of screen time. Nero, on the other hand, get a lousy short flashback for us to understand his anger, and the odd scene with Pike. You don't feel anything for him because by the time he dies you hardly got to know him. Whilst Bana does his best with the role, the character simply has no development whatsoever. Even Shinzon, dare I say it, had more time for the exploration of his character than poor Nero did.
     
  13. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    I think he only took over the Reliant because those guys were caught with their pants down. I see your point, I really do, and thanks for clarifying....but I stand by my judgement of the character. I can't relate to him, and he's not all that smart.

    Thanks for the explanation though. :)


    Oh, and I think Nero would totally kick Shinzon's butt. He does in the credibility and coolness department, anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2009
  14. Zeppster

    Zeppster Commodore Commodore

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    How would you know that. The state of federation money and how it's changed all the time. There was money one episode and wasn't in another.
     
  15. El Chupacabra

    El Chupacabra Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Yeah, I don't see how any serious fan can watch the movie and not have a problem with this. I spent the whole of the movie thinking "fuck you JJ, there's no way this is credible".

    The problem is that Trek movies have now fallen victim to formula. No matter how many critics gush over this film you cannot get away from the fact that at the end of the day it's the same "nasty bad guy is a threat to the Enterprise crew and/or earth" that we've seen in most of the movies.

    This seems to be one of the most disliked elemnts of the new set designs and the movie in general. I personally despised it. I hope JJ listens and makes the required changes for the sequel.

    If so I think Bill Gates will be the villan in the sequel.

    This didn't bother me at all. I never understood the PC theory that women aren't allowed to look sexy when they are at work. For all we know they have an alternative trouser uniform in any event. If I had any gripe at all it was fact that the male uniforms so closely resembled their TOS counterpart, but the ladies version wasn't - particularly with respect to the missing sleeves and missing rank (which is damned stupid if you ask me).



    Well, according to the Countdown comic, the Narada is not only a future Romulan vessel, but has been outfitted with Borg technology. We've seen before that if a ship rams into a borg cube the cube just gets on with it. So, I guess the Narada is just too powerful to let a nuclear explosion drag it down.


    Well, I think that in order for a species to be space faring they would have been around longer than the 70 years between TOS and TNG so why would they not be known to the Federation in the new universe?



    Well, in order to do that he has to go back and stop Nero in the TNG era and restore the original timeline. That means no more sequels for JJ.


    It's a long established Trek plot hole that when the shit hits the fan the Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant!!!

    How about a desk job? ;)

    I don't think there is anything for him to go back to. If Nero changed history then he changed history. I don't buy all this guff from Bob Orci that the prime timeline still exists alongside the new one. If that were the case then in the City on the Edge of Forever Kirk and Spock need not have gone back after McCoy since there universe was still out there somewhere.

    No way to tell.

    I think its safe to say that the new production team don't give a crap about that sort of detail.
     
  16. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

    Honestly, who cares what Uhura orders at the bar? It is nowhere established when the UFP made first contact with the Cardassian Union.

    And other than in the most recent Trek films, the antagonist let the Enterprise go because he just couldn't be arsed. I thought that was cool.
     
  17. lawman

    lawman Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh, wow, loyalty and friendship. The only way this film could be more provocative is if it also promoted motherhood and apple pie. (Oh, wait, it does do motherhood, too. Daring social commentary there!... :rolleyes: )

    Good SF is about getting people to look at things they take for granted from new perspectives, not just reinforcing obvious preconceptions.

    I've already written at length about the film's glaring flaws in story logic. (And IMHO, they're more severe and more numerous than any other Trek film except STV:TFF. Although regardless, "other movies were bad, too!" isn't much of a defense.)

    You seem to be getting awfully personal in your arguments here, though. Surely you've noticed that even quite a few people who like the movie are willing to concede that, as Cyke101 put it,

    But if you really want a(nother) itemized list of story problems, here's another poster ready to oblige...

    (And I feel compelled to point out here, too, that this ice planet was somehow in an orbit very close to the hot, desert planet of Vulcan...)

    But back to our list!...
    And I'd add to that that apparently Earth has no planetary defenses either. Not so much as a missile or an armed shuttle. Because Kirk and, later, Spock both proved that orbital drill is actually pretty damned easy to take out. Hell, hand weapons can do it!

    BTW, AJB, let me say that I relate to the overall thrust of your post beyond the list: a fresh start is one thing, but a fresh start that absolutely eliminates even the possibility of many of the best episodes of TOS is quite another thing. I'm surprised a lot more people haven't been rattling off lists of what's impossible now.

    And I certainly agree with your overall conclusion... except that if you feel that way about it, I can't really imagine why you'd voluntarily put more money in the pockets of the people who made it. Doing so just sends the message, "I want more like this one!"

    Acknowledging that you obviously liked the movie a whole lot more than I did, we can still agree that this was one helluva thing to ask us to swallow.

    (And they undermined Spock's change of command almost immediately anyway by having him turn around and participate in the away mission onto the Narada, with no one questioning his competence. And of course Kirk went too, leaving essentially no one in command.)

    And BTW, it wasn't just Kirk getting a huge promotion at the end. Apparently the entire bridge crew of Starfleet's flagship (aside from Spock) will now be made up of newly graduated cadets with exactly one mission under their belts. :wtf:
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2009
  18. El Chupacabra

    El Chupacabra Commodore Commodore

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    You know lawman, as time passes more and more people seem to be having problems with these glaring errors and I predict as time goes on the gushers will reduce and the criticism will grow until this movie takes its place in Trek history as a pretty average flick with fancy special affects....but a bloody awful script.

    But then I knew that the story was doomed to failure as soon as I heard that the award winning writers of the oscar worthy Transformers had gotten their grubby mitts on it.
     
  19. Jim Steele

    Jim Steele Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks Mutenroshi :)

    Apologies for that whining post, it was mainly based on an argument I had with a few mates on facebook, and then then exact same argument with MY MOTHER via sms. I guess she's kicking me out of the basement... :lol:

    Anyway, I forgot to mention that this film had me choked up, seriously almost shedding tears, during George Kirk's death not ten minutes in. That moment where he hears his newborn son letting out a first cry over the communicator, a father making the absolute most the only contact he'll ever have with his child. The inevitability of it, the sense that George was trying to express a lifetime of love into those short few minutes.

    My god JJ & Co, you got me. You really got me. I don't know if that was the mooshy parent in me or if a crying baby is just a cheap tear-inducing device (:devil:). Nah, it was quite a well played moment. Credit where it's due, etc.

    Note to Hollywood: Please stop giving Eric Bana work. Please?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2009
  20. Roald

    Roald Commander Red Shirt

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    It's been a very long time since I've posted in the TrekBBS Forum... But I just saw the new film last night and was so totally blown away..! I thought the film worked on just about every level, and I feel reassured about one thing:

    Star Trek is alive. Star Trek is back..!