The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 30, 2009.

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Grade the movie...

  1. Excellent

    707 vote(s)
    62.7%
  2. Above Average

    213 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Average

    84 vote(s)
    7.5%
  4. Below Average

    46 vote(s)
    4.1%
  5. Poor

    77 vote(s)
    6.8%
  1. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    At first I thought it needed to be at the center of a major gravity well for Red Matter to create a singularity. I thought that is why they bothered to drill. But then they created one in open space. Unless the mass and warp drive of his ship was creates enough of a gravity well to start the process.
     
  2. Dac

    Dac Commodore Commodore

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    Re: The story was awful. (Spoilers)


    I'd just like to point out, Shinzons whole gripe was the fact that he was the "shadow" of Picard, he didnt want to be the afterthought in history, he wanted to be remembered as the better, stronger person who had no problem with slaughtering billions of people if it had to be done.

    Nero on the other hand is driven by revenge, revenge for the death of his wife and his unborn child. While Shinzon calculated his way to the top of Romulan government, after the destruction of Romulus, Nero found and escorted the high council to a Romulan outpost, where they were experimenting with reverse engineering borg Technology, The only ship there was Nero's minig vessel, so they retrofitted it and let him on his way for vengence. After Spock stopped the Hobus Supernova, Nero and Spock were sucked in to the resulting Black Hole. Nero was thrown a 150 years into the past, and bided his time for vengence against Spock (Who had promised to help nero save Romulus, but failed).

    Nero is just driven mad by Anger. Shinzon was driven by Power. Similar, but still different Character motivations.
     
  3. Irvy

    Irvy Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: The story was awful. (Spoilers)

    If you read the Countdown comic books, some of your gripes are quite nicely answered. The Jellyfish was a ship the Geordi La Forge built, and he locked the computer to only accept orders from Spock. It also explains how Nero got involved.
     
  4. archeryguy1701

    archeryguy1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For the open space one, they said that if the red matter go detonated, then it would result in a singularity. And, if you think about it, dropping some of that stuff in a supernova or in the core of a planet is as good as detonating it.
     
  5. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Hello to everyone on the boards!
    This is my first post. I just saw the movie last night and decided to post a reaction. I was a casual fan of TOS growing up (reruns and the movies) and became a big fan of TNG and then DS9. I then learned to appreciate TOS even more in retrospect. I never got into Voyager, but I am currently going through Enterprise on DVD.

    The New Look: Awesome 5/5
    While attaining a sense of epic scope rarely before seen in Trek, the world of the Federation feels closer to us than ever before. The technology seems more advanced and yet more familiar. This is the perfect balance.

    The Cast of Characters: Excellent 5/5
    I don’t see how this could have been better, reasonably speaking. Pine is a charismatic Kirk who matures subtly over the course of the film. The conflict within Quinto’s Spock is closer to the surface than was the case with Nimoy’s incarnation of the character, but that distinction is essential to the plot and therefore effective. Saldana is moving as Uhura, though her relationship with Spock feels slightly rushed. “Tell me what you need,” following the destruction of Vulcan, was a scene that hit exactly the right note, but the subsequent scene in the transporter room felt relatively insubstantial. There will be ample opportunity to follow up on this in later films, however. Urban is fabulous as McCoy. Bruce Greenwood is remarkable as Captain Pike. Nero is a paper-thin villain, but Bana does what he can with very little. It’s exciting to see the crew come together, and I am lefting wanting more. Specifically, I want: (1) to see this crew in action now that they’re freed from the shackles of this movie’s horribly contrived plot, and (2) I want to see them doing what they are intended to do, that is to “boldly go,” exploring the unknown, and not simply fending off an imminent threat to their safety.

    The Plot: Terrible 1/5
    As much as I would like to be enthusiastic about every aspect of this movie, the plot is pretty bad. “Red matter” is a crude, boring, inconsistent and nonsensical plot device. Basically, it is a magic red glob of plot manipulation. On top of this basic contrivance, the movie piles glaring coincidence upon glaring coincidence, particular in the pivotal section, where Kirk is ejected from the Enterprise, only to randomly stumble on Spock. Then together they stumble upon Scotty. Scotty and Kirk then beam aboard the Enterprise, which by then would have been many light-years away at high warp. I should not have to turn off my brain to enjoy a Star Trek movie, quite the opposite. As much as I enjoyed many aspects of this movie, I found myself wincing regularly as the plot unfolded.

    Blockbuster Action and Comedy: Very Good 4/5
    Some of the humor I could have done without, for example Scotty beaming into the pipes, but much of it flowed from the characters or was embedded cleverly in the unfolding action, such as Kirk’s increasingly severe reaction to McCoy’s vaccine. As for the action, the most exciting scenes were the opening sequence and the space jump. Nothing else stood out for me as especially memorable from the point of view of pure action, but the whole movie was fast-paced and exciting, almost to a fault. I thought the destruction of Vulcan lacked dramatic weight partly for this reason. I also thought the final scene where the warp core is jettisoned to escape the singularity was unconvincing and borderline incoherent. That said, with a few reservations, I have to say that I think this film will have a broad appeal to anyone looking for a fun popcorn movie, which was obviously the intent.

    What it worth it to have Spock Prime around?
    This is the main hypothetical I am left considering now that I have seen the movie. It was great to see Nimoy play Spock again and pass the torch to a new generation. He works as a mentor to Kirk and even toward his younger self at the end. Yet the desire to have him around is largely responsible for this movie’s weak plot. Given the film’s very strong strengths (cast, effects, new look), I am left feeling that the writers would have been better served to either come up with a better device for having Spock Prime involved or to simply leave him out of it and tell an origin story without the connection to Star Trek’s past: a straight-forward reboot, rather than an “alternate universe” reboot. We will never know for sure.

    Intellectual Value
    Star Trek can be thought-provoking, and this movie for the most part was not. This is not a criticism (a movie cannot do everything at once), but it is an important observation. I would like the sequel to be more ambitious in this respect, though “thought-provoking ideas” does not mean preachy morality, which I was glad this movie avoided. Nor was this movie entirely devoid of interesting ideas. It is about accepting our conflicted nature as a strength rather than a weakness. This has always been Spock’s story and through him (and his heirs on later shows) it has been Star Trek’s story. This movie acknowledged that and did justice to it, in my opinion. That is an encouraging sign for the future of the franchise.

    Overall: 3.5/5
    I thought this movie was strong were it absolutely needed to be strong and very weak in areas that may not end up mattering all that much either in the short term or the long term. In the short term, a plot full of holes (pun-intended) will not do the movie much harm at the box office, I don’t think. That is pretty standard for summer blockbusters. In the long term, there is no reason why the plot of any future sequels need be so contrived since the reboot is now accomplished. The new crew is charismatic, the new look of the franchise is awesome. This is an effective revamp but not a great movie.

    Thanks for reading!
    -Flemm
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  6. Zane Gray

    Zane Gray Commodore Commodore

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    Huh? What day is this?
    Here's what I think about Gene... Gene would have f--king LOVED this movie. Gene would have had tears in his eyes watching this, seeing his characters and his creation being realized so fully and so vibrantly, and still so alive and relevant after 40+ years. More alive and relevant than ever perhaps. He would have loved it.
     
  7. DaveG

    DaveG Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Nice first post. Thanks for the review. Not the first I've read about the story being weak. Going later today. We'll see.....
     
  8. ParticleMan

    ParticleMan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would agree with his assesment about the story, but for me, it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the film one bit. I've never thought that Star Trek was plot driven...its always been about the characters to me. If Trek were dependent on consistently cracking plots, then it wouldn't have made it 43 years...
     
  9. MoJo

    MoJo Commodore Commodore

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    Los Angeles, CA
    I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and rated it excellent. I thought Abrams was brave in making Spock the emotional heart of the story, and I really appreciated his relationship with his parents. Spock's inner turmoil makes perfect sense.

    As for all the changes from canon, I only have this to say:

    For many years, many have complained about the lack or originality, the paucity of fresh ideas, and the overall stagnation of the Star Trek brand. JJ Abrams wasn't just charged with directing a new Trek feature. Rather, he was charged with expanding the Trek brand, and reinvigorating the franchise.

    In order to do that, change was inevitable. I applaud all of the changes from canon. Frankly, I think it's about time. Departing from canon will allow Abrams to shape the Trek world to suit his needs, and it will inject a bit of uncertainty (i.e. dramatic license) that will keep us fans on our toes, not knowing exactly what to expect. So bravo to Abrams for departing from canon, and for doing it in a way that will allow him to tell fresh, new stories.

    Just my two cents! :hugegrin: Live long and prosper!
     
  10. galleywest

    galleywest whaaaaaat?? Premium Member

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    Well, I can see from reading this that there are some major plot points I must have missed, like Nero saying he had already saved Romulus (but only in the alternate timeline, not the original). Can someone answer me this, though: what was Nero and crew doing in the 25 years while they waited for Spock to fly through the singularity? And did the singularity close up after spitting out Nero's ship, then open up again 25 years later to spit out Spock's, or was it open for the whole 25 years? Did they explain either of these things?
     
  11. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    QFT.
     
  12. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I gave it an excellent.

    I went to see Wolverine last night, with low expectations, thus enjoying it a lot more than I expected to. I went to see ST today,with high expectations - thus, enjoying it as much as I hoped to.

    Loved the cast, loved the humour, loved the action, loved the direction, loved the look of it, loved touches like silence for the explosions in space, thought the actor as George Kirk did as much in those few minutes with his character as Linus Roache did as Thomas Wayne in Batman Begins (and I think Roache was superb in BB), loved seeing a Trek movie that was exciting, fun and must-see, for the first time in years.

    My wife went with me, the first time I've dragged her to a Trek movie since First Contact. She fell asleep during that but enjoyed this one. Say no more?

    I would have some criticisms. The plot was far from original, if a clever way of rebooting while acknowledging the original continuity. Bana was a bit under-used. Scotty played a bit too much for laughs. Not enough old Spock and he served a bit too much to give exposition. The ending was a bit cliched, but having said that, the action was impressive.

    But for all those criticisms, it was great to see Kirk and Spock acting as a team, it was great to see Nimoy again (and is Spock going to remain in the 23rd century or go back to the 24th?). A star is born in Pine, Greenwood was a dignified Pike (and we might see more of him too?) and I think I preferred Yelchin's Chekov to Koenigs!

    Roll on the sequel!
     
  13. Tai

    Tai Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd also like to temper some of my comments from my first, somewhat emotional response, with some of the things I liked about the film.

    There was a scene, with (Quinto) Spock beaming back to the Enterprise with his arm outstretched reaching for someone left behind. The expression on his face was so earnest and yet so entirely Vulcan that tears welled up in my eyes. It was perfect. Chekov's desperate realization only added to the heartbreak. The scene was pure magic. I'd watch the movie again for that moment alone.

    Similarly, the interplay of the two actors when Spock said "Get out of the chair." was brilliant. In fact, every line Zack Quinto had was powerful, even the little things like the simultaniously urgent and restrained way in which he said "Energize".

    On the set front, Engineering was an industrial nightmare--not at all like the sleek and streamlined interiors we're used to seeing. It reminded me a lot of Galactica, but I accepted the design aesthetic almost instantly-- I think it's one of those updates that Star Trek needed in order to stay current. I loved the Bridge. I'd been dreaming of an actual window where you could see out onto the saucer with the HUD projected onto it. It was BEAUTIFUL.

    The Orion cadet was hot. And genuinely hot, not the awkward decontamination gel scene "hot" that Star Trek usually mangles. I expect screenshots forthwith.

    Ben Cross's Sarek had gravitas from the very moment he was on screen. The Same goes for Bruce Greenwood as Pike. Wonderful casting, great performances.

    I very much enjoyed the entire build-up of the Kobayashi Maru sequence. It was one of the highlights of the film. The simulation was comedic, and Spock's dialogue in the "trial" was resonant. Unfortunately I felt like the pay-off, in Kirk's forcing Spock to relinquish command was a let-down. I would have liked to have seen Kirk's (neccesary) cruelty play out over several scenes and interplays before Spock finally snapped. Doing it in a single scene felt very forced. That's one of the places I felt the film's pacing did the building of the relationship a disservice.

    I will commend them for another thing--skydiving directly into the fiery ray of an orbital drilling platform is a particularly inventive way of offing a redshirt.

    I also liked how complex and hands-on they depicted the art of transporting individuals...up until they had Scotty transport himself and Kirk onto a vessel that had left the planet at Warp 4 for (presumably) hours. But, I guess if anyone could pull it off, it'd be Scotty...

    The beauty shots of the Enterpise, in space dock, at Saturn, avoiding (and colliding with) debris were all lovely. ILM is the greatest effects house ever. Of course, there were better NCC-1701 redesigns on this BBS's own Art forums... ...but I digress.

    There were a LOT of things I liked about the film, thinking about it further... but I still feel like the bad outweighed the good.
     
  14. Bob The Skutter

    Bob The Skutter Complete Arse Cleft Premium Member

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    ^Old Spock was staying in the new time line, he told young Spock that he can be in two places at once, because he is going to the new Vulcan colony.
     
  15. galleywest

    galleywest whaaaaaat?? Premium Member

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    FICTION?! WHAT?! Of course we all know this. I don't particularly like this aspect of the fictional storyline which erases another part of the fictional storyline that I enjoyed. How is that mystifying?

    Why do I have to like both? Or enjoy both? I never said it had to be either/or. All I've said, and I'll say it again, is that the alternate universe saddens me because in it, my favorite spin-off of Trek will be seriously altered or gone. And AGAIN--yes, I know it's still the same in the original ST universe. But it doesn't change that feeling of disappointment.

    And for the record, I did enjoy the movie. And (again, again) I see why they did it this way, agree with what they did in the sense of reviving the franchise as a whole, and look forward to the next installment. But I'm still sad about the above points.
     
  16. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I gave it an Above Average but I think I'd have to classify it as "very good" or a B+.

    The production value was top notch. The acting was very good for the most part and the character moments were great.

    However, the plot just wasn't very good at all. It ultimately suffered from the same problem every other Trek film has: little substance, massive plot holes, forced plot points, and trite villains.

    I also thought the pacing was terrible. I've never seen and of Abrams TV, all I really know of his work is MI3 and it's really clear he's not a very good director.

    I'm not even going to bother with the lens flares as they've been discussed to death already.

    He just doesn't seem to have the best grasp of space. (Both literal and figurative.) A lot of shots were framed poorly and some of the lighting really made things feel cramped.

    Also, a lot of the exterior stuff lacked scope. I'd be the last person to praise Meyer, but at least he understood this. It's effen outer space!

    I also don't like the rapid cutting. I know it's the new "thing" these days. But I've never liked it. To me that only thing that ends up getting cut is content.

    This is a symptom of my biggest gripe: the awful pacing. It was like Star Trek for ADD kids.

    Right from the beginning all the cutting back and forth to locations and and four time period jumps in like ten minutes really was a lot to swallow. And frankly, the whole Kirk as a kid in the Corvette bit was totally pointless. But this rapid locale and time continued throughout the film. There was never enough time to let anything sink in--especially the important parts.

    These are the ones that really get me. You have these highly emotional scenes and they're basically treated as filler. Abrams failed miserably at capturing the moment with any of them. It's like, okay Mom's dead, planet blowed up, let's move on.

    But his also goes back to his poor shot framing. Take that scene on the transporter with Spock. He just watched his mother die horrifically and his entire species has just pretty much been eradicated. Certainly, from the other stuff going on, I can pick up on that. But visually, it's completely vapid. After all, film is a visual medium and if I turned the sound off I really don't "get" that. For all that I could tell, Spock had just lost his dog in a transporting accident.

    Then of course, we're right back to the action. :rolleyes:

    It's really too bad, because I think this could have been one of the better science fiction films of the last twenty or so years in the hands of a better director.
     
  17. T'Grinch

    T'Grinch Romulan Curmudgeon Administrator

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    Oh, I figured in the new reality, it was early enough that Nero or not, they could save Romulus. In the new reality, it will be saved. Vulcan won't.

    In the prime timeline, Romulus won't be.

    That's my whine. Either timeline, one of my two favorite planets "buys it."

    I'm also not getting destroying one of the two main planets/cultures in Star Trek. It's like taking the heart out of Star Trek.

    Spock will now have to ditch Uhura and pair up with one of those remaining 10,000 Vulcans. They all need to start making Vulcan babies, fast, if their race is to survive. Well, in his case, it would be a 3/4 Vulcan baby if he pairs up with a full-blooded Vulcan.

    As for Nero and "revenge." OK, say he doesn't realize he's in an alternate timeline. ALL he needed to do was to go back in time and he could save Romulus. There is NO need for revenge. He could fix the original problem by destroying the sun (which I'm assuming wasn't the main Romulan sun.)

    Nero's anger was due to his wife (and people) dying. If Romulus is restored by the destruction of that star-to-go-nova, bye bye anger. Why would he then give a shit about Spock being too late?
     
  18. jamestyler

    jamestyler Commodore Commodore

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    I can see where people are coming from, it's a huge chunk taken out of the show, but it doesn't take the heart for me - sure the planets gone, but the people are still there (granted, a fucktonne less of them) and whereas in Enterprise they were shown as a race of people with a stick up their ass and a major superiority complex, we might be able to see something more cooperative to help wash that part of history away.

    Plus it goes to show that, not only are they willing to make bold changes, but that nothing or no ones safe. We can't expect to see someone like, for example, Sulu live through X amount of films because he'll go on to Captain Excelsior. That certainty's gone and while we can't be sure everyone will survive however many films they'll make.

    I just realised John Eaves read (and liked) my review of the film. Getting paid to watch Star Trek, then having one of my favourite Trek artists tell me he liked my work... the awesome with this movie just refuses to end.
     
  19. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    He said he would stay and help with rebuilding Vulcan. Seems like a nice 'final project' for Spock.
     
  20. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Gigity.

    :D