The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 30, 2009.

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Grade the movie...

  1. Excellent

    707 vote(s)
    62.7%
  2. Above Average

    213 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Average

    84 vote(s)
    7.5%
  4. Below Average

    46 vote(s)
    4.1%
  5. Poor

    77 vote(s)
    6.8%
  1. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Thank you. I guess I'm just that damn good.

    How would that stop me from continuing to read this thread?


    J.
     
  2. Anticitizen

    Anticitizen Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I guess it wouldn't, but at least the fact that your fingers would be in your ears would prevent you from posting.

    Do remember that this is the 'Star Trek Grading & Discussion Thread,' not the 'Star Trek is Awesome' thread, and occasionally you're going to bump up against reviews from people that didn't like it. Attempts to stifle such discussion are in poor taste.
     
  3. Fish1941

    Fish1941 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
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    Los Angeles, CA
    A Second Look at “STAR TREK”


    Not long after J.J. Abrams’ new TREK film, ”STAR TREK” hit the theaters in early May, I wrote a review of it on my blog. Despite some criticisms of what I had believed were flaws in the film, I concluded that it was a pretty good film. Well . . . I saw it for a second time, yesterday, and realized that my view of the movie has changed.

    When I said that my view of ”STAR TREK” had changed, I meant not for the better. The number of plot holes that had caught my attention astounded me. And considering that Abrams and screenwriters, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman, had decided to create an alternate reality in the script, my opinion of the film has become even worse.

    First of all, I want to point out one thing. This alternate reality or timeline created by Orci and Kurtzman has its origins in the arrival of late 24th century Romulan mining ship – the Narada – and its captain, Nero (Eric Bana), to the year 2233, 154 years before his time. His arrival marked the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin, along with its captain, Richard Robau (Faran Tahir), and first officer George Kirk (Chris Hemsworth). Just before the Kelvin’s destruction, Winona Kirk (Jennifer Morrison) gave birth to James T. Kirk (Chris Pine), aboard one of the ship’s shuttles.

    It is here – Kirk’s birth – where the movie hit its first snag. Many TREK fans pointed out that James Kirk had been born in Iowa, not aboard a Starfleet vessel or one of its shuttles. Robert Orci replied that Kirk would have been born in Iowa if Nero had not arrived from the late 24th century and attacked the Kelvin. I say . . . bullshit to that. Why? One, Winona Kirk was never a Starfleet officer in the original timeline. This has been supported in ”THE ORIGINAL SERIES” (1966-1969). And Nero’s arrival would have NOT changed that. She had no business being aboard the Kelvin . . . even before Nero’s arrival. Orci and Kurtzman also failed to hint that Kirk had an older brother named Sam.

    Another problem I had with the film was the manner in which Kirk joined Starfleet Academy. At a bar near Kirk’s home in Iowa, Captain Christopher Pike (Bruce Greenwood) urged him to apply for the Academy, claiming that Kirk would attain an officer’s commission within four years and command of a starship within eight. So, what does Kirk do? He shows up at a Starbase the following morning on his motorbike . . . without even encountering one sign of security. Then he boards a shuttle for San Francisco . . . just like that. He never submitted an application. Nor was he wearing the uniform of an Academy cadet. Come to think of it, neither did Leonard McCoy (Karl Urban). Was this Starfleet’s idea of military discipline in the mid-23rd century? What the hell was this, anyway?

    Within three years, Kirk is close to completing his Academy training. Yet, he ended up getting into trouble, when he passed the Kobayashi Maru test by cheating. When Starfleet receives a distress signal from Vulcan regarding a lightning storm in space, the cadets are mobilized to help the Starfleet ships in orbit. Kirk is unable to join this expedition due to being suspended from the Academy. I have two problems with this scene. One, why on earth was it necessary for Starfleet to mobilize so many cadets for a distress signal over a lightning storm in Vulcan space? Two, no one inside the U.S.S. Enterprise’s Sick Bay bothered to questioned Kirk’s presence on board and McCoy ended up ordering others around, despite the fact that he was a mere cadet and not the ship’s Chief Medical Officer. In fact, where was the CMO before his death? And why was it so important for Uhura to join the Enterprise’s crew? She was a cadet. She was not supposed to be there on a permanent basis, in the first place. And could someone please tell me why the cadets assigned aboard the Enterprise were wearing the same uniforms as the regular crew . . . instead of cadet uniforms? They had not graduated from the Academy.

    Upon reaching Vulcan space, the Enterprise finds the fleet destroyed and the Narada drilling into Vulcan's core. Pike promotes Kirk to First Officer. Then he orders Kirk, Lieutenant Sulu (John Cho) and Chief Engineer Olson to an orbital skydive onto the Romulan drilling platform and destroy it before it can drill a hole into Vulcan’s core. Meanwhile, he would meet with Nero aboard the Narad. Unfortunately, Olson is killed during their drive. Kirk and Sulu are forced to fight Romulan miners aboard the drill platform before stopping the drill, using phasers. However, Nero manages to successfully drill the hole, drop the red matter into the planet’s core and destroy Vulcan. Spock transports to Vulcan to save his parents and the planet’s High Council. However, his mother, Amanda Grayson (Winona Ryder), is killed before she could be transported safely from the planet. Not only did I find this sequence, but also heavily contrived. I found it so unnecessary. Why was it necessary to promote Kirk to First Officer? Aside from identifying the lightning storm for what it was, he did nothing to earn that promotion. What was Amanda doing with the Vulcan High Council? And if Starfleet issued phasers could stop the drill, then why not the Enterprise’s phasers? If Captain Pike had simply ordered his Weapons Officer to fire at the drill, then perhaps it would have been destroyed before it reached Vulcan’s core. Alas . . . we are given this exciting, but contrived nonsense with a fight on the drill platform, the Chief Engineer and Amanda Grayson dead, Vulcan destroyed and Captain Pike a prisoner of Nero’s.

    Chekov manages to transport Kirk and Sulu back to the Enterprise. Pike is tortured by Nero for information on Earth’s defenses. Meanwhile, Kirk (who is now First Officer) and Spock (the Acting Captain) have a quarrel on the Bridge about Spock’s decision to return to Starfleet. Kirk wants to go after Nero. During the quarrel, Spock has Kirk marooned on Delta Vega. There, Kirk has an encounter with snow monster straight out of ”STAR WARS” and meets the elder Ambassador Spock (Leonard Nimoy). Old Spock informs Kirk about what led Nero and himself to the 23rd century. He then leads Kirk to a Starbase, where they encounter engineer Montgomery Scott (Simon Pegg). I really disliked this sequence. Nero needed information on Earth’s defenses, but did not need the same for Vulcan’s defenses? And both planets were the premiere members of the Federation? And why maroon Kirk on some snow planet? Spock could have easily hauled the Human’s ass into the brig for insubordination. As for Kirk . . . what is this guy’s problem? Confronting the Captain on the Bridge? Kirk would have never tolerated any officer or crewman doing the same to him. Kirk’s monster encounter was a joke. And after meeting Old Spock, the latter reveals his knowledge of a nearby Starbase. Now, I really have a problem with this. Why did Spock fail to warn Starfleet about Nero? He was pulled into the 23rd century, captured and marooned on Delta Vega by Nero at least two days before Vulcan’s destruction. This was not merely a joke. This was criminal. And why was it imperative to transport Scotty to the Enterprise, along with Kirk? Without Starfleet knowing?

    Before Spock transported Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise, he informs Kirk that the latter needs to assume command of the Enterprise. Once aboard, Kirk deliberately enrages Spock to force him to acknowledge that he is emotionally compromised, thereby forfeiting command which then passes to Kirk. Here was another scene with which I had a problem. Kirk . . . should NOT have assumed command of the Enterprise when Spock removed himself as captain. You see, Kirk had been relieved of duty by Spock before the latter marooned the former on Delta Vega. And Kirk was never reinstated back to duty upon his return to Enterprise. Nor do I recall Spock deliberately handing over command to Kirk. Whomever was acting as Spock’s first officer during Kirk’s adventures on Delta Vega, should have assumed command. Not Kirk.

    Spock, Scott, and Chekov devise a plan to ambush the Narada by dropping out of warp behind Saturn's moon, Titan. Kirk and Spock beam aboard the Narada. While Kirk rescues Pike, Spock retakes the elder Spock's ship, destroys the drill and lures the Narada away from Earth before piloting a collision course. The Enterprise arrives and beams Kirk, Pike, and Spock away before the collision, which ignites the remaining red matter and creates a black hole within the Narada's superstructure. Kirk offers to help rescue Nero and his crew, but the Romulan refuses and the Narada is destroyed. The Enterprise escapes the same fate by ejecting and igniting the ship's warp drive reactor cores, the resulting explosion pushing them clear. Why was Chekov and Scott needed to devise a plan to ambush the Narada in the first place? What was Scotty doing on the Bridge? What was he doing aboard the Enterprise? And could someone please explain how Spock managed to fly a starship that was 154 years ahead of his time? Who was in command of the Enterprise, while Kirk and Spock were aboard the Narada? It certainly should not have been Scotty. He was not an official member of the crew.

    The movie ends with Kirk receiving adulation by Starfleet for his actions against Nero and command of the Enterprise. Spock decides to remain in Starfleet and become the Enterprise’s First Officer. God, I hate this. What exactly did Kirk do in this movie, besides act like a complete asshole? Well, he did rescue Captain Pike. But the latter also assisted in the rescue. It was Spock who came up with the plan to ambush the Narada. It was the person in command of the Enterprise who prevented Spock from being blown to bits by Romulan missiles, while he was inside Old Spock’s ship. It was Spock who destroyed the Narada. Sulu’s flying and Scotty’s engineering skills prevented the Enterprise from being destroyed by the black hole that destroyed the Narada. Why in the hell would Starfleet give most of the credit to Kirk? How in the hell did a cadet, who had yet to graduate, end up with command of Starfleet’s flagship? What kind of military organization is this?

    I had one last problem with the movie . . . namely one Pavel Chekov (Anton Yelchin). In the original timeline, Chekov was born in 2245, which would have made him thirteen years old in this movie. According to one of the screenwriters, Roberto Orci, Nero’s appearance in the past caused a ripple effect, allowing Chekov to be born four years earlier in 2241. God, how lame! I suppose one could accept this explanation. But how does one explain Chekov’s transformation from an intelligent and competent Starfleet junior officer to a child prodigy? I really cannot see how a time ripple effect could change a character’s personality traits. Not to that degree.
     
  4. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
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    please cite where the career of kirk's mother is cited in tos.
    also it never was established on screen that sam was older. it is mostly been a fannon assumption.'


    who knows perhaps chekov was a bit of a prodigy. it would explain why spock allowed
    chekov to take over the science station when he was gone.

    it wasnt the high council with the katra's but rather certain vulcan elders of high standing.


    there is so much more..
    as for spock the younger flying the jellyfish.
    it may not have been that complicated or for that matter he may have just asked and the ship had told him.
     
  5. indranee

    indranee Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
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    Warrrrrrrrrshington, DC
    Starfleet is not a military outfit. all you need to do in order to know this is watch TOS ;)


    Dr. Puri was the CMO on the Enterprise. she/he died in the attack. it's in the movie. check out the scene.


    Captain's discretion. look it up in TOS, as well.


    she was there with her husband, in all probability. what? you want Sarek to leave her alone at home while Vulcan got destroyed?

    *shakes head*


    I thought the Enterprise had lost its firepower.


    Spock was not exactly... working on all thrusters. hence his "self-demotion" later on.


    he was YOUNG. not the same Kirk you know from TOS. not seasoned, not matured, certainly not ready... at the beginning of the movie. possibly not by the end either. the whole point of the movie was the Works in Progress that Kirk and Spock are at this point of their lives and careers. if you missed that and was expecting something like TOS Season 2, this was not the right movie to watch.


    my thought is that he pulled that out of his mindmeld with Kirk. Kirk knew the fact, Spock had not... before the mindmeld.

    I'm getting tired. maybe someone else can deal with your inane concerns? because, ya know, that's what they are... I.N.A.N.E.
     
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    Consider: one who likes something is more likely to forgive or ignore any potential flaws. One who dislikes something is likely to point out any potential flaws.

    Just sayin.' ;)
     
  7. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
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    about why leave kirk on the planet..

    hmm not only was spock not working on all cylinders but he may have
    been afraid kirk would just escape from the brig.



    not only was this a younger kirk looking at trying to do something before earth is destoryed we actually see conflict on the bridge during tos..
    especially between bones and kirk.


    uh where did he get the thing that nero marrooned spock two days before the destruction of vulcan.
    and even if he did leave him a couple of days before i am pretty sure nero would make sure spock was no where near the outpost.
    frankly one dosnt walk very fast through the snowy waste like that planet.
    as to how spock knew about it (he tells young kirk he was headed toward it) spock may have seen it as they flew around the planet before he was left.
    or he may have just remembered it.

    oh..

    seriously how much did you watch tos or the movies based on it.
    cadets were supposed to have served aboard a ship while still a cadet.
    they wore a uniform similar to other crew while doing so if they were at a certain level in the academy.

    we see this with saavik in khan.
     
  8. Toruika

    Toruika Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If I remember correctly, in the novelization, Spock did note that Kirk would likely escape from the brig if he put him there, so he marooned him instead. Spock Prime also had been on Delta Vega for two weeks, and had visited the base on DV multiple times (though somehow hadn't met up with Scotty. I didn't understand that when I read it, either... Why wouldn't Spock look to warn the federation? Unless communications were down, at the base.)

    I think I need to find the novel and re-read that part. Anyone else read it? Help? :)
     
  9. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

    Joined:
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    Wow, another plothole. Not only does Starfleet have no security to speak of, they can't build any brigs worth their shit.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nope thats been there since Star Trek V with the easily broken back wall and no guards on duty, oh and TOS with Gary 7 not being properly searched to make sure he didn't have a device for breaking the force field generator.
     
  11. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

    Joined:
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    The back wall was exploded outward by help from outside, and nobody was on duty because everyone was under Sybok's spell. Escaping on one's own was considered rather impossible.

    Which a. has got nothing to do with the brig, and b. isn't their fault because Gary has access to disguised super technology of an advanced alien race.
     
  12. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

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    wow that describes some tos episodes.

    i mean it isnt like no one ever broke out of the brig in a tos episode.
    or even say over powered a security guard on the way to the sickbay.

    :eek:

    but what ever version this is kirk and kirk was constantly breaking out of places.
     
  13. anthooz

    anthooz Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    We must restore vulcan. Vulcan was at the core of Gene Roddenberry's vision.
    www.restorevulcan.com

    Together we can have an action film that also respects the vision of the past.

    Live long and prosper

    Anthony
     
  14. indranee

    indranee Vice Admiral Admiral

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    not gonna happen.
     
  15. SalvorHardin

    SalvorHardin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :lol: Trek fans do love their reset button, don't they. No matter how much they whine about it being overused.
     
  16. Anticitizen

    Anticitizen Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Salvor, you speak as if you're not one...
     
  17. SalvorHardin

    SalvorHardin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The fans are by no means a united entity. There are all sorts of opinions and divided factions within it.

    So yes, I am a fan of Star Trek (the franchise) by all means but there are many times where I don't feel like I am a part or want to be considered part of a certain section of fandom.

    Or to be more precise, in this case I am not part of the Trek fans that have been calling for a reset button as far as the destruction of Vulcan is concerned.
    For better or worse, they made a decision to destroy it, they should stick with it and its consequences.

    I hope I made clear what I really meant. :)
     
  18. archeryguy1701

    archeryguy1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nope. Reset buttons would have completely castrated all balls that the franchise's future would have. If something brand-spanking new resorts to undoing any "damage" it did, then what's the point? We already know how everything is going to end anyways.

    Yep. The planet that showed up once during TOS was at the core of Roddenberry's vision. If they were to have deleted Vulcan, we would be without one, maybe two episodes and a bunch of references. I think we could manage.

    How is this disrespecting the vision of the past? The fact that they were willing to go off and do their own thing? Hell, I'll bet that they did the whole "alternate timeline" thing for the sole purpose of letting the fans know that they can go to sleep at night with the knowledge that their favorite universe is still intact somewhere. I'm fine with Amanda being dead, I'm fine with Vulcan being gone, i'm fine with two Spocks, and I would be ok if there was more major changes in the next movie. I nominate the Russian wizz-kid, Ensign Chirpov (;) ) for the next casualty.
     
  19. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

    Joined:
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    Except that they didn't do the whole "alternate reality" thing, they did indeed do an "alternate timeline" thing, aka, the old timeline is gone, destroyed, changed, now the alternate timeline exists; as all time travel stories in Star Trek did before. This is what Spock described - a changed timeline, the old one being gone and destroyed.

    Uhura then just pulls the term "alternate reality" out of her ass that has nothing to do with anything that Spock just said, and for some reason Spock just agrees with her.
     
  20. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Wrong.
    Wrong again.
    And wrong yet again.

    He agrees with her because that is what happened.
     

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