The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 30, 2009.


Grade the movie...

  1. Excellent

    707 vote(s)
  2. Above Average

    213 vote(s)
  3. Average

    84 vote(s)
  4. Below Average

    46 vote(s)
  5. Poor

    77 vote(s)
  1. Minuialeth

    Minuialeth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 11, 2009
    Normandy, France
    I didn't know about Countdown and wish I had because it makes things clearer. Suddenly Nero is less of a one dimensional vilain and you realise that Romulus in the 24th century and Vulcan in the 23th were destroyed because neither race was willing to trust the other despite Spock's best efforts. What he must feel is beyond guilty.
    I wonder if it's not what makes him to appear so eager, almost desperate (as much as Spock can look desperate) to make his alternate and younger self's life better and fulfilled, because he thinks his came to a failure (he didn't succeed in convincing the Romulans and the Vulcans in time). He looks like he's ready to let himself die in that cave when nuKirk arrives and gives him purpose again.
    I hope he'll help the Vulcans as much as he can in the alternate time line, I wouldn't like him to end his life in misery, beating himself up for something he tried so hard to prevent but couldn't because Romullans and Vulcans had their heads up in their asses.
  2. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    It is too bad the star element of the explanation was not as clear as it could have been (it did not confuse the issue of Nero's motivation for me, regardless of the comic, but it would have made the attempt to save Romulus more understandable--otherwise, whether Romulus' star explodes or is consumed by a singularity, Romulus is doomed).
  3. TopperHarley

    TopperHarley Ensign Newbie

    Mar 21, 2007
    There are two things I have to say first, I haven't seen this movie, I have only read a lot about it and I'll try to keep this text as short as possible. How can I have an opinion without seeing the movie. It's very easy, I would bet that every Star Frek fan will agree with me in at least one thing, it does not make a difference if you like the movie or not. The Fandom was already splitted before this movie, but through this movie this split has gone bigger than before. And I would go a step further and say this was their intention. If someone writes a story like this one, for a Fandom that is already splitted than you don't need to be able to count 1+1 to know that there will be more dispute after it.

    As I already wrote, I have read a lot about this movie, this included several Forums. But what I got to read their was close to make me speakless. Through this I now also know why there are not that much negative comments like positive ones about it. There isn't a real discusion about it, no but instead of that some "Fans" are insulting the ones who don't like the movie, there have been words that I ask myself where are those "Fans" coming from if they think it's neccasary to act this way with other humans. Also I was really surprised about the reaction of the Forum Admins, which was it you ask? None! Only to make one thing clear, I'm not talking about Fans who tell other Fans they are fanatic or something like that, it were real hard insults. What is the sense of this? Everyone has the right on a own opinion and just because someone does not agree with others it is not a reason to insult someone. Probably such happenings are the reason that many Fans haven't told their opinion, to make sure they are not getting insulted too, well I can't blame them for it.

    Meanwhile I've also read some Interviews of the Actors, let's say it was interessting in some way. Zoe Saldana as Uhura had something with Spock, in an Interview she now said it would be possible that Uhura would have something with Kirk in the next movie. Hey yes why not, in the third one she then could have something with Bones and if they do more films this is not a problem because there are still Chekov, Sulu and Scotty.... Unfortunately nobody knows how many movies they can do, according to an Interview with Bruce Greenwood the writers have enough ideas for at least two more movies. So what will come after this two movies? I don't think they will make it with this cast to a tv series, which means another new cast for tv or cinema? Also he said in the Interview he wishes the third movie will show the way to TOS. I'm very sorry to ruin that, but on TOS vulcan was never how should TOS happen after this if the timeline is not getting repaired?

    But after all I was shocked about a Interview of Chris Pine during the premiere of the movie in Berlin. He said that we can not hope for a positive future. I'm sorry but if I understand this right, why should we try? In the past Star Trek showed us the future as a positve thing, a time in which nearly everybody would be happy to life in it. Are there really people who want to life in this new Star Trek future? Star Trek always showed what can be reached in the future if it is tried. Since the beginning of Star Trek there have been a lot of positive changes in our real lifes because people believed that it is possible to change things and that it's worth it. The new Star Trek shows a darker future with bad monsters who life in the ice of other planets. Humans and Vulcans who like nothing more than to quarrel or to battle with others on each possibility instead of searching for a peacefull way to solve their problems. I would bet on these new characters are longing for revenge, and I'm not talking about the way Picard was in First Contact.

    What happened to the time when you could use an Star Trek character as example for something positive, not enough with that, you could learn something durring that time. But it seems this is over forever, Hollywood is currently rebooting or remakeing everything they can get their fingers on and it seems we can't stop them. I have never been a fan of remakes and reboots. Just because someone don't likes something you don't need to take it away from the people who like it to give it to others who never liked it. It would have been a much better way to use a middle way, for example a step into the 41 century. Because of the big distance it would have been possible to say a lot of things are no longer relevant there and it could have started on zero there. But no, they hope that every fan is coming back because of a whole reboot, sorry to all who haven't noticed yet, but this are not the same characters and they never will be again. It was in the last episode of the first TNG season when Data said the television didn't made it over the year 2041, well if it's continuing like currently than whis will not happen, because it will not take 32 years to end it....

    Here is a little list of Reboots that already have been done, are planed or are rumored about:
    Battlestar Galactica
    Tomb Raider
    James Bond
    Star Trek
    Captain America
    Police Academy
    Back to the Future
    Dare Devil
    The Crow
    Fantastic Four
    Planet of the Appes
    (Knight Rider)

    I was surprised they didn't try to make a reboot of another series which was running good in the past, maybe they want to do it now: MacGyver some years later they can use the main actor for the Stargate reboot (Yes the day wil come).

    Don't get me wrong, I have seen the reboot of James Bond and some episodes of the rebootet Galactica, and truly that have been several hours of my life that I want back!

    I have also read comments how great it is that there are now humans getting pulled out of damaged ships through hullbreaks into space. I'm sorry, but is this what we call good entertainment today? That would mean the people who make such comments watch not enough Star Trek or I have watched to much. A little hint, Enterprise Season three, Nemesis when the Bridge is hit directly and I am sure there are a lot more scence where this was shown before. What about people in exploding Starships which got buried by debris, no problem, watch DS9 and you have already found it, breaking hulls? DS9, Nemesis, Voyager, Enterprise....we already had all of this before, but it seems nobody saw it, that's surprising after this seems to be the most important things today.
    There have also been a lot comments that people have waited before they got to cinema because they wanted to see the movie without the crazy costume wearing fans and with just the normal people. How is that to be understood? That's nothing else like saying "I would like to watch a Baseball game live in the stadium, but there are always those freaks with their Fan accessories". The difference is, one of those things is public established and seen as normal because a lot of people do it, the other not because there are not that many people. So let's go on and say Star Trek is getting a mass medium through the reboot, than it would be accepted by the public, now those people who said wearing a costume is crazy would have to do it themselves. Beside this, where would Star Trek be today without those dedicated, devoted Fans? A very good question that I can't give an answer to, but I know one place where it won't be, in cinema. Fans shouldn't be scared off just because they seem currently disturbing, what do you think will happen after the current mass hype, right, many of the people that have watched Star Trek for the first time now will not come back because this was not what they expected, currently just nobody is seeing this, currently everyone is just watching on the visitor counts and the money. A short mass hype will not help if the result can not be continued, instead it will go down deep, very deep, that deep that no light will shine there.

    It seems the movie is running better than any other Star Trek movie before, but you don't see the whole thing. Yes it's true it is running better, but just in the United States, in other countrys it's not running that good. In Germany also Nemesis had more visitors, but no panic they have already found the reason for this. The weather on the start weekend was to good, (ironic on) so probably they will get more money for the next movie to build a weather controll machine to make sure the weather on the next movie will be bad...(/ironic off)

    How is this mass hype formed and why is there just positive critics in the media? The mass hype is easy to explain, 160 million Dollars for the movie means 100 million more than for the last one. When Nemesis got to cinema I saw about one or two times a trailer on TV, not really much. On this movie it's just doing one thing, it nerves, they are "boming" the people with it, there are TV stations you can't watch without seeing it again and again and again and so on. But there is more, the other media, there has been a news blackout about the story of the movie before it came to cinema, on every other movie nearly the full story was published before on some scources. This time they have not given the fans a choice than to go to cinema to see what they have done. And if the media is acceppting news blackouts there has to be a reason for it, money, so it is no longer a surprise that all their critics are positive. There are not many people who still form their own opinion without infuence of others. Already years ago people asked me why I watch Star Trek, because it's just nonsense. If I asked what they don't like on Star Trek they several times had to say they never watched it, they just heard this from others.....

    Also some wrote Star Trek has been exempt from Nerds. How is that to be to understood? I can't understand it, everyone should use a search engine of his/her own confidence and search for the meaning of the word. Wikipedia shows some very interesting aspects about this word which already turns the comment Star Trek is now free of Nerds around into it's opposite. But ok, if those people want to believe this....there will come a time they will be called Nerds by others, that will be the moment they're waking up, they have been assimilated by the Nerds without realizing it.
    Because according to the description there you're already a Nerd if you're getting a little deeper into Science or Technology, sorry to all of you out there who haven't seen this yet, but Star Trek always did this. So may I say, resistance is futile you're already a part of it. So before someone throws around such words you should inform yourself what they mean, that's very easy today, it needs just a few mouse clicks. But were getting away from topic, if those people think Star Trek is still Star Trek just without Nerd things, pelease explain to me what the difference is, I only see a deleted Star Trek timeline, sorry my mistake, had been transfered into an alternate universe where the life circumstances of the Crew are different. Or do you want to say some of the old Fans for which Star Trek was something special could feel hurt by the new movie (which whould be an emotion) and wont come back?

    So another question would be what means Star Trek really? We know the Crew around Captain Kirk from the original series and are now getting confronted with a new situation and how the same Crew will behaves this and it's said this is Star Trek. According to this defination there is a very good possibility for a very successful new series on TV with the Crew of Captain Kirk, no really, I'm not kidding. Here is a possible way how it could run, in the first episode the Crew is getting back in time to the 21 century without their ship, to be exact to our time, there is no hope for them to get back to their century and they now have to acceppt their new life in our time. Sure they will try to use their knowledge to get back to their time, but we would see how the Crew will make it through this very bad situation for the whole series. But would this be Star Trek? According to the defination of some, yes because it's still the same characters in just a new situation. So will already the characters be enough to make Star Trek to what we want to see? There is also another possibility for a new Star Trek series with a new Crew which will show the life in a colony that tries to keep contact to Federation as low as possible, sometimes other species will visit them, so we would have the technology of the future, but would this be Star Trek?

    It's not difficult to see that it needs more than known characters or known future technology to make something to Star Trek. Let's see if we can find a way, we place Captain Kirks Crew in the colony, so we have the characters together with the technology, finally we're back at Star Trek, seems something is still missing, and it's not the Enterprise. It always needed more than just characters and technology to make something to Star Trek, it always was the interaction of many things which made the difference between Star Trek and other series or movies.
    It would have been possible without any problems to bring new adventures with Captain Kirks Crew, played by the new actors, into cinema without deleting the Star Trek timeline, I'm sorry again, putting it into an alternate universe. But it's very easy why they haven't done this, all who worked on the movie would have to inform themselve about the known Star Trek universe, but they said they had no intereset in this. There was a comment in "The Wrath of Khan" which describes it very good.

    Spock: "As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy, than to create"
    McCoy: "Not anymore; now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! Here comes Genesis! We'll do it for you in six minutes!"

    It's possible to rewrite what McCoy said a little bit. "Not anymore, now we can do both at the same time! In 43 years Star Trek had been grown with more and more details. Now watch out! Here comes J.J. Abrams team, They'll create another Star Trek in only 127 minutes!"

    Well, it took them a little longer than the playtime of the movie to make the original Star Trek disappear, but we all know what happend to the Genesis planet on Star Trek.....

    On a blog I've read another very interesting comment about this movie, they deleted everything including TOS, sorry but can someone please explain to me why I always write deleted? They made everything which will happen including TOS undone here, but Enterprise was before it and has to be there for the future. On Enterprise have been several time travels which also included temporal agents from the far future who traveled back to repair a damaged timeline. They did this for Archer and they did this on Voyager but not for Kirk? Oh I know he had 17 violations of the temporal directive (I had to serach for the 17) so he must not be worth the help.... Now don't say they can't do this because maybe they wont be there in this alternate universe, they still did it for Enterprise in this universe and if they are not there it would have been a completely different universe before, nevertheless there was an Admiral Archer...

    Now I am nearly finished with the movie, but I have to criticize also the people who liked the original Star Trek and want to vaporize the new movie. What sort of Fans are you if you think everything is lost? There have been many episodes in the past which messed up the timeline, and in the end everything was repaired again. If someone really wants to delete the whole original Star Trek timeline forever, then he needs to know Star Trek into every detail and I don't see this danger on the currently involved people. It's Science-Fiction, which means there is always a way back. The Kobayashi-Maru test is also just a Science-Fiction scenario, sure they cheated on the current movie, but in opposite to Kirk here will be no commendation for originally thinking, because this was nothing else than a bad hoax.

    How could it continue from this point?
    1. Q, No explanation needed.
    2. Everything stays the way it is now and the original Star Trek is useless history.
    3. Everything stays the way it is, but in 24 century another Crew makes a time travel to rapair the damage (It only needs a little knowledge about TNG and a little fantasy)
    4. A repair without a time travel in 24 century (I don't want to explain this here)

    And I am sure there are dozens of other good ideas to repair it.

    I've already read about rumors of a return of Khan in the next movie, this could work. Just an idea how this can be done, the Enterprise finds the Botany Bay and wakes up it's crew. Unfortunately the stasis wasn't working that good for Khan and he now needs to wear a black helmet with a oxygen mask. Khan is very angry that Kirks Crew wasn't able to help him more and decides to kill Kirk. To do this he gets a Phaser, but he don't understands how to use it really so he needs to modify it and makes it to a Phaser Sword. Ok I hear you, you say this would be Star Wars and not Star Trek. Sorry but you're wrong, it would be nothing else than another Star Wars part into the Star Trek universe. Millenium Falcon in Star Trek First Contact, R2D2 in the current movie and yes that's official. So this would be a way how Khan could be new developed in a very fast way and make it a very fast movie nobody could follow. Exactly what the people seem to want today. Beside that I have today found a funny link you should take a look on.

    Some of the excited Star Trek 11 viewers may ask, why repair it? Because I think the statement this is just an alternate universe is nothing else than a lame excuse to get Fans of the original Star Trek to cinema. Let's see this really and logical, why should old Spock make a time travel to stop Nero if it will not have an effect on his own universe? Ok I can answer it myself, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. But there is a problem with this statement, there have been a lot of time travels on Star Trek in the past were nobody had this view of things like Spock has. So why travel back in time if you can be sure after the bad guy has traveled back you wont see him again and your problems are gone with him? Also there was the Guardian of Forever on TOS, Bones had just walked through it, as a result the Enterprise and other things never existed. How is this possible if a time travel just creates a new alternate universe? Nothing else on First Contact, the Borg travel back and from one second to the other Earth under the Enterprise has been assimilated, where was the alternate universe in that case? Or is an alternate universe just getting created after the use of the new red matter? Is there any scientific theory this matter could really exist? If the answer is a no then this has no longer to do with Science, just the Fiction or let's better call it Fantasy remained. As I already wrote I have not seen the movie, but does it have to do with Science in any way or is it only Fiction without any connection to reallity?

    Ok everyone who has read down here is getting a little video as reward wich I found during cleaning up of old VHS tapes. Unfortunately I had only the last 9 minutes left on the VHS, it's from the 30 year Star Trek event 1996. It doesn't matter if you like the new movie or not, maybe we can find someone who still has the full video. But before you open it I need to say one thing about it, it's in german, I have added subtitles to it but I can not completely guarantee that every word was translated back fully correct, nevertheless I'm sure the sense is still the same.

    In this sense, live long and prosper, see you out there.
  4. Gep Malakai

    Gep Malakai Vice Admiral Admiral

    Oct 20, 2007
    Tl;dr. Especially when your review started with "I haven't seen the movie."
  5. indranee

    indranee Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 20, 2003
    Warrrrrrrrrshington, DC
    uhh... one thing: Kirk died -- died -- because of a hull breach.

    did you happen to see that particular movie?
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 18, 2004
    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    That exceedingly long post was rendered completely irrelevant by the fact that the poster has not actually seen the movie.
  7. archeryguy1701

    archeryguy1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 1, 2007
    Cheyenne, WY
    TopperHarley, I would first like to say good job on keeping it short as promised. I'm going to go through a quote all of your points, but I'm going to try and address your points in order so that it's somewhat clear where I'm going. I disagree with you on the split in the fandom. I don't know about everywhere else, but at least here there seems to be more unity than I've seen before. Sure, there are people who dislike the movie, but by and large, most people agree. And there is no sense in the movie makers "wanting" to make the split larger. Admittedly, the fandom isn't exactly the most reliable as far as money making goes, but turning fans on eachother will serve no purpose.

    You're making the side that dislikes the movie dound more innocent and more victimized than it is. Neither side is innocent, and the folks who don't like the movie have done more than their fair share of mud-flinging. "How can real fans like this movie?" "You have to be brain dead and impressed by flashy lights to enjoy this crap!" And for the most part, if someone here has been reasonable and polite with their dislike of the movie, then they have been left alone. Most of the mud-flinging coming from the fans' side has been directed at people who were either doing their own flinging or were completely unreasonable (both leading up and after movie release). Does that make it ok? No. But people who dislike the movie aren't being as suppressed and they aren't any where near as victimized as you make them sound.

    You're reading too much into Zoe's comments. She never said it would be possible, she said she wouldn't mind seeing herself with Pine/ Kirk. And even if she did say it was possible, that's still a helluva a leap to translate that into she wants to jump from man to man to man. TOS was about the five year mission of exploration... why can't that happen without Vulcan? The TOS that everyone has known may be "gone", but why can't the third movie lead into the TOS concept?

    Can you provide a link to that interview with Pine. I have never heard of anything like that (and I don't think anything has popped up here about that, as I'm sure it would have), and I would be shocked if he did say that. The new Trek wasn't all that much darker. Worlds being destroyed have been a concept used since TOS. In fact, I felt like this was almost a lighter movie than we've had in a while. It was fun and it was funny, which is more than most movies and episodes can claim of late. JJ Abrams even said that he wanted Star Trek to represent "hope". Vulcans and humans going against eachother is nothing new. Almost all of the series have had an example of where Vulcans have felt a sense of superiority over humans.

    Reboots/ remakes don't happen because some people don't like the original product. They happen because the new folks think they can do it in a new and excited way. And they're not taking anything away from the folks who liked the original product. Go into your movie room and look at your DVD collections... have any of your movies or season sets disappeared? Is JJ banging on your door demanding that you hand over anything representative of Old Trek? You're not losing anything. As much as they wanted old fans to return, their bigger goal was to bring new fans in. Old Trek was reaching a point where it was literally a franchise entirely for the fanboys, and no one else could really jump on board and get it. The new group wanted to make a new, fun Trek that everyone could get into. The last series and movie was made for the fans, and Nemesis was actually written by a fan, so their two "successes" proved that the fans obviously can't be counted on to make something work.

    Don't worry, I would be shocked if anyone "got you wrong" and assumed you liked reboots. That's definately not a question someone should have.

    CAn you provide any links to the comments people have made about how great it is that people get sucked into space? I have yet to read anything like that here, and it honestly seems like something that you took out of context... that alone just seems like a silly compliment to make to any movie. And exactly how many people are making these comments? Where would Star Trek be without the devoted fans? How about a canceled series and a box-office flop?

    So... the only reason the reviewers like it is because Paramount pumped a lot of money into it? And the only reason the rest of us like it is because the reviewers like it and we can't make our own opinions? And they aren't forcing anyone into going and seeing it. In spite of the "news blackout" a lot of details came out before release, and if one waits just a few days after the release, then they'll get all of the details they want.

    I think you misinterpretted the nerd comments, whatever they actually were. As I said above, Star Trek had basically turned into a Nerds-only fanboy club. Star Trek opened the universe up in a way that everyone could watch it and understand it. The Nerds aren't being excluded, they just aren't being exclusively pandered to any more.

    How do you define Star Trek? Star Trek had gotten too big and bloated with all of it's details and canon. It stopped being about making a great movie or show and more about making a movie or show that fit into the grand scheme of things. Trek needed to bring someone in who was ok with saying "Fuck canon!" If it were to survive.

    Again, nothing was deleted... are your DVD's still there? I just want you to check again. Reset buttons are cop-outs, and I'm thrilled that JJ avoided that. It would have completely killed the story and destroyed his credibility in my eyes. That's all I have to say on that.
  8. TheMurph

    TheMurph Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jul 18, 2005

    Dang, for someone who hasn't seen the movie you have a lot to say about it.
  9. number6

    number6 Vice Admiral

    Don't they all, though?
  10. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 1, 2006
    Intergalactic Planetary Planetary Intergalactic
    That Uhura bit of his complaint makes cheesy titles for ST porn pop up in my brain, stuff like "Nyota does Enterprise".

    Thanks mate. :rolleyes:

    ...and no, you can't judge the film without having seen it. It is as simple as that.
  11. Minuialeth

    Minuialeth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 11, 2009
    Normandy, France
    Then I scrolled down and my reading of your post stopped there. Sorry.
    :techman: to those who were brave enough to read the whole thing.
  12. VulKhan

    VulKhan Lieutenant Red Shirt

    May 24, 2009

  13. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Ohio, USA
    Sorry, Topper and no offense, but after this line, just about anything you have to say on the subject of the movie's merits is rendered null and void. I read your post, but I do not agree with it, neither do I think it well informed. Again, no offense intended, but if you haven't seen the movie, I cannot accept your opinion on it.

  14. archeryguy1701

    archeryguy1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 1, 2007
    Cheyenne, WY
    ^But... but... but.. he read lots about it!!!
  15. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Ohio, USA
    And I read a lot of manuals on driving heavy machinery, but you wouldn't be smart to put me in charge of a cement mixer.

  16. Captain A$$

    Captain A$$ Admiral Admiral

    Nov 22, 2004
    I read a lot of things on lesbians but it still doesn't make me one...
    What a long ass post! For nuthin'! :eek:
  17. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

    Dec 26, 2002
    i also would appreciate a link to the pine interview.
    i would like to see it in context because it is very different from what has said elsewhere,
  18. indranee

    indranee Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 20, 2003
    Warrrrrrrrrshington, DC
    I seriously doubt she/he's going to come back with the link after the drubbing she/he's received here :lol:
  19. L_E_E

    L_E_E Cadet Newbie

    May 30, 2009
    I voted excellent! I've never had this much fun watching a a star trek movie. Me and my family enjoyed it. Even my brother who is just vaguely aware of star trek.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2009
  20. cyberengland

    cyberengland Ensign Red Shirt

    Aug 15, 2005
    Saint James, Missouri