"The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by DataLoreSpock, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. 7thsealord

    7thsealord Captain Captain

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    Find myself wondering how many "Business associates" and employees of Fajo's made similar assertions.

    Yes, he would prefer not to harm Data, and indeed actively sought not to do so when first ..... acquiring him. But, in the light of subsequent events, Fajo would certainly take further steps - he did show an especially high regard for his own safety and comfort, after all.

    Also, as I already said, Fajo's care with his new toy would only last as long as it had novelty and did not pose any great problem or inconvenience for hiim. No further - we already saw how his employees fared.

    Indeed. Compromise with and submit to someone who was completely untrustworthy and had no compunction about killing others. What could possibly go wrong?

    And if Data obeyed and he DID kill again, which was more than probable however much you pretend otherwise, them's the breaks huh? Data could always have shrugged and said, "Well. I COULD have prevented this, but it would have been morally wrong to do so."

    I believe that was already covered quite adequately. Fajo had a personal forcefield so hand-to-hand was not an option, and Data could not be reasonably sure of taking him out by flinging stuff at him either. I might al;so suggest that one only ASSUME he was unarmed - he advertised a couple of precautions beforehand, but did he mention all of them? No way of knowing.

    Anyhow, we are both basically repeating ourselves now, so I think we will have to simply agree to disagree.
     
  2. DataLoreSpock

    DataLoreSpock Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Excuse me Mr. Start Wreck but "Fajo unarmed"?
    He had a posotronic sheild!
    Firing that Veron-T Disruptor was the only course of action.
     
  3. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, actually. You are innocent until proven guilty. The burden would be on the prosecution to prove he fired.

    Plus, the evidence is circumstantial. Disregarding "Realm of Fear" due to stupidity, how would one fire a disruptor during transport anyway? You are disintegrated when not at the destination or point of departure. And we know for a fact (visually) that he did not fire prior to transport. All he did was lean forward as though he was going to.
     
  4. Start Wreck

    Start Wreck Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't see the comparison. Fajo hadn't damaged any of his other possessions as far as we know. He didn't get bored of those and get rid of them. Data was the pride of his collection. There's no way he would have damaged or killed him.

    Well, something could easily go wrong, but it isn't guaranteed.
    Whereas if Data shoots, something definitely goes wrong - somebody dies.

    I'm not pretending, I'm stating my honest opinion, based on what's there. Show me the evidence that makes it guaranteed that he would kill again. All you have is a hunch. A hunch is not sufficient for taking a life, even that of a criminal.

    But I ask again, if you think Data firing was the morally right thing to do, why did he lie about it?

    It only makes sense, both narratively (why did he lie?) and dramatically (he did something wrong) if he wasn't morally bound to shoot. If you think he was morally bound to shoot, then you need to counter all these points first.

    We know that Fajo had no weapon in his hand, ergo nobody was in immediate danger. Had he then drawn a weapon, Data would have been within his right to shoot, because then there would be an immediate threat. Do you not see the difference?

    I don't agree to that. :p

    The shield wasn't a weapon, it was a defence, and it wasn't dangerous to anybody but Data. (ie. Fajo couldn't use it to harm one of his crew.)
     
  5. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Oh no! Fajo has a magic bubble that stops Data from touching him! He MUST die!

    Or, as I have said many times already, Data can force Fajo into the escape pod (shoot the floor near his feet and Fajo will move), then Data can shoot the console to make sure that Fajo can't do anything inside the escape pod, then he can leave and lock the door.

    Hey! Fajo is locked up! Data can then take control of the ship and go find the Enterprise.

    But to say that Data had no choice but to kill an unarmed man who was in no position to hurt anyone is ludicrous.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    One too many shots for the single shot Veron-T. Plus you're working under the assumption that none of the crew are loyal to Fajo.

    EDIT: Not sure where I got the idea the disruptor could fire a single shot. Sucks getting old and the memory goes... :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2012
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The weapon wasn't fired during transport, it was already being fired when the transport occurred. I'm assuming Data hit the trigger and then the beam-out happened.
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Well, we have to assume that the Varon T had plenty of ammo left.

    And even if none of the crew were going to go against Fajo, so what? Data could run the ship by himself enough to find the enterprise. And I'm sure he'd have a good chance of locking the crew up or incapacitating them somehow. He's still got a deadly weapon, remember, which works perfectly well for a threat.

    So I stand by my claim that there was absolutely NO justification for Data to try to kill Fajo.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe it wasn't the *entire* crew who remained loyal to Fajo, but I'm guessing that a fair amount of them were. Varria did say that while Fajo's punishments were brutal, his rewards for loyalty were 'lavish'.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Except that Fajo deserved it. He's a murderer, a kidnapper and a theif who existed outside of Federation jurisdiction for a long time and Data had no clue whether they would ever catch up to him.
     
  11. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You'd hope that the Federation is above considering that justice.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    In most cases, yes. But Fajo, in Data's estimation, was going to continue getting away with serious crimes indefinitely. The more he got away with the more brazen his actions would've become. He poisoned someone's water supply just to acquire Data.

    Sometimes you just gotta burn the SOB down. Even Data realized it.
     
  13. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That may well have been what Data was thinking (though I doubt the script's idea actually went farther than "let Data do something that appears emotionally motivated, and then let people wonder what, knowing he isn't capable of it, actually went on inside his head"), but that doesn't mean he had justification to act in that way. We're basically discussing whether Data was about to do something illegal, but with the available data we can't really tell, so by way of presumption of innocence he goes free.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    As an abducted Starfleet officer, I'm not sure that Data's actions can be unilaterally declared illegal.
     
  15. Start Wreck

    Start Wreck Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Anyone who argues Data had a legal or moral right to shoot Fajo needs to explain why he lied about it, otherwise the argument doesn't hold up.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ But as I said, Data did not lie. He didn't say that he did not fire. He said "Perhaps something occurred during transport". That is not a lie. It's being evasive, yes. But it is not lying.
     
  17. Start Wreck

    Start Wreck Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's dodging the question. Let me rephrase:
    If he did something morally or legally justifiable, then why was he evasive about it?
     
  18. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Being evasive may not necessarily imply that Data knew he was morally or legally wrong to shoot Fajo, but possibly that he was unwilling to provide a statement while still processing what had happened for himself. That certainly fits in with the theme that this was a moment of personal growth for the character.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    It's not evasive, it's merely one interpretation of Data's statement.

    I think Data simply found what he was about to do necessary but personally repugnant and didn't wish to expound on it.
     
  20. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think that's how Data thinks, personally. If he was committed to believing it necessary, he would stand by it. In fact, I also think that if he was certain it was illegal he would probably come out and say so, and face the consequences. To me the very fact that he is evasive about it hints at his own uncertainty about what just happened.

    OTOH, and that's why this is such an interesting question, perhaps the above take on Data is wrong and he's not actually who we tend to think he is, and actually has no qualms about taking steps to protect himself from prosecution for a crime.
     

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