The Impossible Girl: Who IS Clara Oswin Oswald?!?

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Nightowl1701, Dec 27, 2012.

?

Seriously, who the hell is she??

  1. A long overdue family reunion - Clara's a fobwatched & regenerated Susan!

    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  2. The One Who Got Away - Clara's a fobwatched & regenerated Romana!

    3 vote(s)
    4.7%
  3. 'Til Death do us part? I don't think so, Sweetie - Clara's a fobwatched & regenerated post-Library R

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. She's a MAN, man - Clara's a fobwatched & regenerated Master!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. If at first you don't succeed... - Clara's the ultimate Anti-Doctor weapon of the Silence, Mark II!

    3 vote(s)
    4.7%
  6. A sneak preview of things to come - Clara's a Watcher, but WILL BE the Twelfth Doctor!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Hello again - Clara's a fobwatched, future (post-Doctor) version of Sexy!

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  8. Eye See You - Clara's Prisoner Zero!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. You'll never see it coming - None of the above, and even stranger than all!

    56 vote(s)
    87.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    Hold on a sec. I just thought of something. Moffett doesn't do "throw away lines". Somebody brought Strax back to life after AGMGTW, as per the Doctor.
    That's all.....
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Taking it too literally. Again, your motivations have nothing to do with my objection. I'm not concerned with what you want or what you feel. I don't even know who you are. This isn't personal at all. I'm only talking about the methodology of the argument. The point is that you started with the conclusion and selectively interpreted or finessed the data to justify it. Which is effectively meaningless, because it can be used to "prove" any piece of nonsense.


    Oh, I've seen Doctor Who fans demand all sorts of things, but what fans demand from a show often has little to do with what the show itself contains. Doctor Who's strengths have never included consistency or internal logic. For nearly half a century, it's always been a make-it-up-as-you-go kind of affair. After all, they didn't have reruns or home video in the early years of the show. And since the show was aimed at children, nobody expected the viewers of a current serial to remember the events of a serial from five or ten years earlier. Not to mention that the producers kept changing, and new producers can't be expected to remember or choose to honor what their predecessors did.

    So DW continuity has always been extremely loose and inconsistent. The recent stuff about time being overwritten is just a rationalization for what's always been part of the show.

    And you know what? That's not lazy, not for this kind of storytelling. Doctor Who is a tall tale. It's a fantasy about a wizard with a magic box. It's a bedtime story for children, and it's got the bizarre, contradictory, stream-of-consciousness logic of a child's narrative, and that's perfectly appropriate in this context. If you choose to sit down and let someone tell you a ridiculous tall tale, then you have to expect that they'll change the story and contradict themselves and throw logic out the window whenever it suits them. That's the whole point of a tall tale.


    That's not what I meant. What I meant was that, given the flexible temporal logic of the Who-verse, it doesn't work to assume that the Time Lords were alive prior to a certain calendar date and killed off after that date. And given that we've now been explicitly told that events we've seen in past serials can be erased from history, we can't assume that if the Doctor went back to where he left Susan, say, she'd still be there.

    What I'm really saying, more fundamentally, is that Doctor Who chronology has never been that linear or sensible. Events always happen in relation to story chronology, even where time travellers are concerned. True, Moffat has done a lot of playing around with time travellers meeting each other in backward order, but the original show never bothered with that. Whenever two Time Lords met anew, it was always after their previous encounter from both of their points of view, no matter where they were in objective time. Whenever the Doctor returned to Gallifrey, no matter where he was in objective time, it was always after his previous visit. Whenever he encountered the Daleks or the Cybermen, no matter when he was in history, it was always after their previous encounter (and the Cybermen's design kept evolving forward even as the stories jumped all through the timeline). And once he'd left a companion behind, or even lost them to death, he never went back to visit them again. The show never cared to delve into the chronological conundrums of it; time travel was just a plot device for getting the Doctor and his friends into trouble, and the only order of events that mattered was story order.

    The whole "All the Time Lords are dead now" idea is just the same kind of storytelling. No, it doesn't add up in linear terms, but it's not trying to, any more than the original show ever tried to make sense of the temporal logic of the Doctor's encounters with the Master or the Daleks or whoever. Trying to make coherent sense of it is like trying to explain the physics of how a cloud can provide structural support for a giant's castle or the biochemistry of how a goose can lay golden eggs (although Isaac Asimov took a stab at that once). It's misunderstanding the type of narrative that Doctor Who is.
     
  3. ToddCam

    ToddCam Captain Captain

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    That's fair.
     
  4. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It seems many believe something happened to all Time Lords everywhere when it happened on Gallifrey. I've never understood that interpretation. I believe it only happened on Gallifrey, and anyone who wasn't on Gallifrey, wasn't Time Locked, Erased, whatever. So, If Romana was still in E-Space, she would be unaffected (Other than what happened to her Home Planet). If the Doctor went to the time and place where he dumped Susan off, she'd still be there (If she didn't run home to Gallifrey to participate in the Time War). This is why I think a Retooled Rani could be a very good possibility to be used as a villain in NuWho, because I think she would've stayed far away from Gallifrey and the Time War, unlike The Master, who could easily be lured back with the promise of more Regenerations, since he goes through lives like underwear and socks.

    I do hope at some point thy bring Gallifrey and The Time Lords back. I don't wanna see them every week, or even every Series, but, I always enjoyed the few times they appeared in the Classic Series messing about with the Doctor's life and manipulatng him. I enjoy the Time Lord back stabbing Politics (The Gallifrey Adventures Audios with Romana II and Leela are awesome fo this, S5 coming out in February, I believe)

    Regading Oswin The Dalek as a Companion - I too was thinking throughout Asylum of the Daleks how cool it would be to have Dalek Oswin as a Companion (Shades of Shalka Doctor with his Android The Master as a Companion)
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The only thing to understand is that it works in whatever way the story requires. If the story requires all the Time Lords to be dead, then they're all dead, temporal logic be damned. At most, their past is "time-locked" so the Doctor can't go back and rescue them, or the Laws of Time forbid him from crossing their past time streams and altering their destinies. But if the story demands that a given Time Lord or Lady managed to survive, then a justification for that survival will be made up, no matter how bizarre or inconsistent it is.
     
  6. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not seeing that, personally. I'm seeing them simply ignoring the possibility there were Time Lord off Planet, like The Rani or Susan or possibly The Monk or Romana. All we have to go on is "They're all dead" or "They're all gone" and they're obviously not dead, since they did escape from the Time Lock once, and "They're", I believe, refers to those that were on Gallifrey. Never once, has there been any indication there was any effect whatsoever outside of the Planet Gallifrey, that I cn recall seeing on the show.

    Yes, the story writer will do what he wants, but, I've seen nothing on screen that implies an effect on any that were off planet.
     
  7. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When he calls himself "the Last of the Time Lords", I never got the impression that what he really meant was "the Last of the Time Lords except for all those other Time Lords who live away from Gallifrey and that I could visit at any time if I felt like it".
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    On the contrary, there's plenty of onscreen evidence that the Time War raged far beyond Gallifrey. We were told this from the very start of the new series -- "Rose" established that the Nestene Consciousness had lost its homeworld in the Time War, and "The Unquiet Dead" established that the Gelth had been rendered incorporeal by it. A "webisode" of Sarah Jane's Alien Files, an online tie-in to The Sarah Jane Adventures, reveals that the species to which Eve from "The Mad Woman in the Attic" belonged was also wiped out in the Time War. Though most non-time-sensitive species knew the war only as a myth (except for the Sontarans, who were aware of the war but barred from participating as they desired), it was devastating to time-sensitives across the universe.

    http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Last_Great_Time_War

    I envision something like a hotter version of Enterprise's Temporal Cold War (or like the open temporal war alluded to in "Storm Front") -- time travellers moving throughout history, jockeying for advantage, changing history to make things better for themselves and worse for the enemy, while trying to prevent the enemy from doing the same. It would've been mostly invisible to non-time-sensitives because they wouldn't be aware their history had been changed, but time-sensitives would've been aware of the chaos going on, and would've been drawn into the conflict in their own defense, or become pawns or cannon fodder for the main combatants. Any Time Lords off Gallifrey would've noticed as history changed around them, and activists like Susan and Romana would've surely gotten involved and tried to help. So it's unlikely that they weren't involved. They were probably fighting by the Doctor's side, and he saw them die. After all, if he'd thought they might've escaped, he surely would've gone looking for them. He was certain his people were all gone; he wouldn't have just assumed that, not if there was any chance they could've sat it out safely.
     
  9. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    None of that says a thing about Time Lords who were off planet being plucked out of time? I do agree Romana (if able) and Susan (and I'm sure many others) would've rushed home to join the fight, though
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I never said "plucked out of time." What I meant, and evidently didn't convey clearly enough, was that the war was waged non-linearly, that it explicitly involved going back and rewriting past events to undo defeats, so we can't assume that just because we saw a given Time Lord alive at a given point in history, that means that event is still part of the post-Time-War history.

    Remember "Genesis of the Daleks?" The Time Lords sending the Doctor back into Skaro's past with instructions to prevent the Daleks from ever being created in the first place? That episode is retroactively regarded as the opening salvo of the Great Time War, and similar tactics were probably used routinely by both sides once the war was in full gear. So yes, it does seem likely that many of the combatants were not merely killed, but erased entirely. That's only to be expected when you're talking about a time war.
     
  11. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, I know about Genesis of the Daleks being Retconned as the opening Salvo in the Time War. I fail to see how, even if The Dalek Invasion was erased, or changed so they would win, it would in anyway erase Susan from time? The Doctor didn't make that TARDIS trip to fight the Daleks, his TARDIS took him there and it just so happened he ran into the Daleks there. Susan still would've gone with him and may or may not have met her Husband, but, if she hadn't met her husband, how would that result in her erasure from time? Some action would've had to have been taken against her existence to wipe her out. Anything not directly aimed at Susan that erased her because of a change to the way the Invasion played out, would've erased the Doctor also, since they traveled there together, not beause of the Invasion, but, simply by chance

    There were no Daleks, in anyway involved in Romana's trip to the Warrior's Gate, so what woul've caused her erasure?

    Now, again, I freely admit, in these cases, I seriously doubt Romana and Susan wouldn't have rushed home to join the fight, if possible, but, if they didn't how would they have been erased from time by changing events where we last saw them?
     
  12. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I see that you have cleverly avoided to address the point I've raised: why would he call himself the Last of the Time Lords if he were not the last of the Time Lords? ;)
     
  13. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why would he say they're all dead, if they really aren't, but, actually Time Locked instead? Why would he say he destroyed them all or killed them all, when he really didn't? :shrug:

    Obviously he wasn't the Last of the Timelords, since he ran into The Master a few times, and of course, there's Jenny (Who, admittedly he doesn't know is alive) and the Tme Head he's married to
     
  14. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I don't think Time Locked and dead are different. They died in the Moment. It's just that the time lock prevented them from escaping or being rescued before the moment.
     
  15. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For all intents and purpose, they're dead. They're gone, they can't be reached, the Doctor will never see them, they're caught in a loop and will never do anything productive ever again.

    Whether you like it or not, the writers' clear intent is that the Doctor is the last of his kind, not that there are lots of Time Lords out there and that only those who were on Gallifrey during the Time War vanished. Otherwise the whole thing has no dramatic weight.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    As I've already explained to you, that is not what I meant in the first place. That's just your misunderstanding of what I meant. I'm not going to defend a position I never actually took.



    You're overthinking it. As I already said, Doctor Who is a tall tale written to appeal to the imagination of a child. It's not supposed to hold up to detailed logical analysis. Of course it doesn't make sense. Doctor Who has never really made sense, especially not where temporal physics or causality came into play. Things happen however the story needs them to happen. Russell T. Davies needed the Doctor to be the last Time Lord, and that's the entire explanation for why he's the last Time Lord.
     
  17. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    OK, let me clarify my position on a couple of things:

    1. I do not believe there are lots of them running around. We know TARDISes were tightly regulated, and running around the Universe freely was frowned upon while Time Lord Society was existent. So, there wouldn't be that many running around in the first place. And, many of those who were running around the Universe freely would have rushed straight home to join the fight. Someone like the Rani (or The Master if he wasn't enticed by the promise of more Regenerations), would've stayed out of it, and could still be out there.

    2. Time-Locked is not dead, it's frozen in a moment of time, or outside of time or whatever, and they've already escaped from it once, and Daleks have escaped from it, so, although an almost inescapable prison, it's not actually DEAD.

    3. Yes, I realize the Writers' intent is to remove them from the playing field, but, it's not necessarily a permanent situation, there is a loop hole if they choose to use it. If they really, really wanted them dead, they would have been killed, the planet would've blown up, instead of Time Locked. RTD chose to Time-Lock them instead of killing them, so, they could be played with as in The End of Time (Plus The Master and the Daleks returning)
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I think you misunderstand time-locking. It's discussed in the Wiki link I provided in post 148. Alidar Jarok has the right of it. They were all killed. The time lock is a barrier that prevents the Doctor from going back to those events to alter the outcome.

    Put another way, it's the same reason the Doctor can't go back to Manhattan and retrieve Amy and Rory. It's a plot device to explain why he can't use time travel to fix the problem. The Time War, like 20th-century Manhattan, is inaccessible to the TARDIS. He can't get there, can't save anyone from what happened there. So they're dead to him, just like Amy and Rory are. The difference being that the time lock blocks everyone (with one exception that barely succeeded), not just the Doctor's TARDIS.
     
  19. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Then what position did you take? How could changing events erase her from where the Doctor left her, without erasing him? They always give some kind of explanation, even if it does disagree with prior "canon"
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Wiki is not the show, that's someone' interpretation. What we see on screen, is Timelords and Daleks have escaped from the Time-Lock, it is not death, it is a prison, locked in a moment of time, and is escapable, as shown onscreen

    I never claimed he could reach them, I said Tme-Loked is not dead, as has been shown onscreen