The highlights of Nemesis

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Botany Bay, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Watching the special features on the dvd, the creative team used themes from the last Arthurian legend. Notably the Battle of Camlann, where Arthur's son Mordred kills him.

    With Picard=Arthur and Shinzon=Mordred.
    Arthur neither Aruthur or Picard have any children to continue their lines. Both are great and renowned warriors.

    Arthur was initally happy to find out Mordred was his son. He felt he could be the worth heir to all that Arthur built. Similarly Picard put alot of trust and hope in Shinzon. With Shinzon's talks of peace between the Federation and Romulus. Picard probably felt this was a chance to have a part of himself continue doing great things.

    Mordred betrayed Arthur and sought to destroy everything Aruthur stood and fought for and kill Arthur. Shinzon withheld his true intentions from Picard. Until he was caught with a WMD biogenics weapon, and later tried to kill Picard 3x.

    Mordred and Shinzon's vendettas against their "fathers" are personal. Mordred is young and want to forge his own kingdom of war, but first has to snuff out his old man. Alot of people think Shinzon parallels Khan, but not really. That title goes to the holo-clone character that is Nero of ST09. Compared to Picard, Shinzon went from being a promising infiltration clone, to slave, to shock trooper in the Dominion war, to successful military commander, to Praetor of the entire Romulan Star Empire. Picard has done a lion share of great things, but he really only captains a ship in the larger scale of the galaxy. In the film Shinzon does voice his hatred that he is only a shadow, or echo of Picard and that his life has no meaning while Picard still exists. The plan was always to decimate Earth, but for Shinzon it became a pressing priority. If he succeed, then Picard, and everything he stood for would be figuratively null and void. There would be no Federation or history record of Picard's deeds of beliefs. Shinzon did say that his name would echo through eternity while Picards would fade into a dim memory.

    Lastly Shinzon and Mordred's deaths are the same. Arthur impales his son on a lance, and Picard kills his clone with a lance like object. In the Battle of Camlann, Arthur too was mortally struck and died of his injuries. I am one of the few people who think it would've been better for Picard to die and not Data. While Data's sacrifice was as noble as Spock's in TWOK. I think they could've done a better job in making it special. I think we the fans and general audiences forget that Data is an android who is learning to be human. The theme of an artificial life form willing committing and acknowleding the concept of self sacrifice is powerful. Brent Spiner in interviews said that was his intentions with Data's death, but people missed point.

    If Picard had died then the crew would'nt have split up at the end of the movie. Riker would've been promoted to captain of the Ent-E since he was technically still commander of that ship. Data and Worf would've been promoted. Beverly would've likely stayed on, to the family together and such as the crew would fondly remember Picard and all the times they shared.

    Spelling it out like this the movie could have been ZOMG amazeballs story wise. But Stuart Baird wasn't hired to direct a thought provoking drama, he was hired to direct and action movie. All the themes i brought up are in the movie but you would have to know what John Logan and Spiner were aiming for to fully get the message.
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    While I read with interest your Arthur comparison to Nemesis (and actually agree with some of your line of reasoning), this...

    ...is still kinda flimsy. The fact of the matter is, going just by what we see in the film, Shinzon's decision to attack Earth came literally out of nowhere. With all due respect to what you and Timo think, the movie gives zero indication that Shinzon had any intentions at all about Earth until Donatra and her ilk pushed him into finally attacking "the Federation." The only "pressing priority" on Shinzon's mind was fucking around with Troi and trying to get Picard's blood in order to survive (and both of which he did extremely ineptly).

    If Shinzon really wanted the best of both worlds, he would have tried to attack Romulus instead. That way he could have taken out his revenge on his true oppressors, and proven to Picard that he was the badass warrior he always wanted to show Picard he was. All destroying Earth would have done was show Shinzon as a sadistic butcher who killed completely innocent people.

    Earth had nothing to do with this movie at all. The only reason why Shinzon decides to attack it instead of Romulus was because the writers probably felt attacking Earth would have had more of a dramatic impact on the audience than Romulus would have (which IMHO is a load of crap).
     
  3. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    England's green and pleasant land.
    I agree that is crossing the line to making an excuse for the film - in real ife sometimes people do random irrational things because they go nuts, killing your wife's lover in a fit of passion for example.

    Spending years on a plan is not the work of a crazy person though, there is motivation. Hitler really genuinely believed all the stuff he spouted about Jews, Untermensch and so on, and lots of people still believe it all. He was a mass murdering evil bastard but he HAD motivation. The same goes for the 9/11 attacks, the attackers were not crazy, they HAD motivation for what they did.

    So shinzon could easily have been written as an evil murdering bastard, which is just fine, but he needed a motivation for his actions explained on-screen to the viewer.

    I actually quite like Nemesis, but the script needed some re-writes to better develop what could have been a very interesting villain. It doesn't take much, look at Khan for example, motivation for revenge on Kirk.. "they killed lots of my friends, and my wife, because that bastard Kirk left me here.." no problem!

    The closest you get in NEM is Shinzon's line "the victory of the echo over the voice" where he seems to be positing that he is showing his superiority to Picard by destroying everything he cares about. I don't believe it though, RE-WRITES NEEDED!
     
  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    I totally agree with you that Romulus should have been Shinzon's target. A genocidal coup d'eat, and a battle with the Ent-E and Romulan warbirds in the skies above Romulus was an idea I've held for Nemesis for a long time. Saving the Romulans from extinction by thalaron would've mirrored TUC and Kirk and crews last mission saving the Klingon who were in that time the biggest threat to the galaxy.

    Nemesis isn't a terrible movie, it just sucks as the final TNG film. Had competition not been so heavy in 2002, Nemesis could've done $120-150 million easy.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    But Shinzon conquered Romulus. He was the freakin' Praetor! They're his subjects now, after a life of being opressed by them. That's far better than killing them.
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Is it, though? You're ruling a planet where the entire populace (including the military) hates your guts, and the guts of the Remans you're allied with. I totally see a coup d'état in his future if he were to have survived.
     
  7. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    double post
     
  8. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Location:
    Captrek
    I think Shinzon made a lousy substitute for Khan, but the character in concept could have made for a good Darth Vader, and that story would have been a good way to return to TNG's roots. In the pilot, Q urges Picard to use the ships weapons against the mysterious threat over Farpoint, but Picard opts for nonviolent solution, setting the stage for the series. It could have been reflected in the film with Picard, like Luke Skywalker, finding a way to reach and redeem the enemy that everyone is telling him to kill. Preferably in a less cheesy way than Return of the Jedi handles it.

    One of NEM’s myriad flaws is that it seems to forget Picard’s sobbing in GEN that “There will be no more Picards.” Shouldn’t there have been signs of hope, love, relief, something positive on his discovery that there actually is another Picard? It would have been a satisfying way to wrap up the TNG saga if a redeemed enemy became the vehicle by which the Picard family got new life.
     
  9. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    One of the weakest points of the film. He casually assassinates the entire government of a planet with probably billions of people, and nobody cares, and nobody cares about those billions who don't care. Stuff like that is what diminishes the scope of a film's story. And that's also where the lack of a Spock storyline became badly apparent. He wouldn't just sit back doing nothing if something like this happened.
     
  10. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Excellent point.

    The TNG films really needed something to tie them together as one saga. A character arc for Picard and/or some of the other characters would have benefited the films a lot. Instead, each film just feels like its own stand alone story.
     
  11. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Shinzon isn't trying to be Khan. Nero is the "lousy substitute for Khan".
    Khan hated Kirk for marooning him on Ceti Alpha 5
    Nero hated Spock for saying he would save Romulus and failing.
    Khan blamed Kirk for the death of his wife.
    Nero blamed Spock for the death of his wife.
    Khan stole a machine that could be perverted into a weapon.
    Nero stole a ship carrying a machine that he perverted into weapon.
    Khan wanted to make Kirk suffer
    Nero wanted to and did make Spock suffer
    Khan was completely obsessed with killing Kirk
    Nero was completely obsessed with killing Spock

    Shinzon never focused on Picard like a laser like Khan and Nero did to their respective enemies. Shinzon priority was getting the transfusion and ridding himself of his clone material. For a clone it makes sense, because Shinzon longs to be "authentic", but can't while his original self is still out there living.

    Picard did try to embrace Shinzon, several times. In the Romulan senate, on the Scimitar while he was restrained but Shinzon's doctors, and in Picards ready room.
    it's kind of hard to embrace the long lost son, when they show up in a dreagnought ship that has 3x the weapons the Enterprise-E had, having dinner in the place where your clone committed mass murder, and later discovering a biogenics weapon on his ship. At the dinner Picard was reluctant but was visibly warming to the idea of trusting his clone. When Geordie told Picard about the thalaron Picard had decided he couldn't trust Shinzon. Several minutes Picard was beamed off the Enterprise, and Shinzon tried to kill him.

    Nemesis was always to be a hit and miss film. Paramount wanted Insurrection to be the last one, but Berman talked them into making a 4th. Had it been successful there would've been a proper send off to the TNG crew in a 5th film.

    It is my personal opinion that VOY and ENT used alot of the story and monetary capital the TNG films could've used to keep the films going.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
  12. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Picard was constantly shagging Anij in the meantime who lived on the fountain of youth planet. He no longer worried about that sort of stuff.

    LOL. I highly doubt that. Berman has always been on the receiving end of the command chain. Paramount dictates what movies and shows are made and when.
     
  13. Caligula

    Caligula Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN USA
    Secretly, he was still struggling with the emotion chip while he realized complaining about it to the Captain was only going to result in a stern lecture like the one he got in the Stellar Cartography room on the Ent-D in Generations. If only someone had paid more attention...
     
  14. Dr. Crusher

    Dr. Crusher Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    I agree with a lot of the "best points" listed above--the Romulan Senate scene at the beginning was an insight into Romulan culture entirely left out of the TV series (understandably so) and achieved the precise effect it was after in the viewers. I really admired Data's memorial among the senior officers, and it seemed perfectly natrual for Riker to start the conversation about Data's life. The memory of Data he shared was a great choice, too--I am sure every single TNG TV series fan was yelling "Pop Goes the Weasel"! when Riker said he couldn't remember the song that Data was whistling when he met him in the holodeck. Shinzon wasn't a bad character either--he was played very admirably, but I do agree that an attempt to create a Khan/Kirk rivalry between Picard and Shinzon felt very far-fetched.

    I think that maybe this film wouldn't have been judged as harshly, particularly by TNG fans, if it hadn't been the last film in the TNG film series. Because it was billed as their "final adventure," I think all of us had high hopes for it. I am sure that everyone who was/is a TNG TV series fan has their own favorite loose ends, and a film like this would be expected to tie at least a few of them up. I agree that the director's personal distance from anything TNG-related made it impossible to expect that kind of a result in this film, and that was definitely a missed opportunity. However, if this had not been the last TNG film, this may have been one of the best TNG movie adventures.
     
  15. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Location:
    Sector 001
    Paramount really should have gone with a Trek-established writer or writers and certain characters from TNG's seven-year-run-plus four-movies should have appeared in small cameos ranging from a minute to a supporting part. IMHO.
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    I don't think the writing was the big failure for "Nemesis". It was Stuart Baird's direction. He did very little homework, the cast complained - and he thought Geordi was an alien.

    Such as Wesley. And Guinan. And Janeway. ;)
     
  17. ReadyAndWilling

    ReadyAndWilling Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2009
    the scimitar looked unbelievably awesome.
     
  18. Lanny77

    Lanny77 Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Ireland
    I disagree. Apparently the original script crafted by Logan, Berman and Spiner was said to have been Warth of Khan-esqe in quality. It was after Stuart Baird that the script was rewritten and we got the the dune buggy stuff thrown in
     
  19. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination


    agreed
     
  20. Josan

    Josan Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Location:
    London, Canada
    Highlights would be... uh... the visuals. The ships. That's about it. The acting and the story were pretty cringe worthy. I recently tried re-watching and made it about 20-25 minutes in and turned it off.

    And no offense to the OP but the reverse lettering in the opening title felt extremely wrong to me.