The highlights of Nemesis

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Botany Bay, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Shinzon was insane. Raised in a mine, subjected to constant abuse and taught to hate what he is. If you've had any experience with mentally ill people, you'll find their motivations don't always stand up to scrutiny.

    IMO Shinzon wanting to wipe out Picard and humanity because they lived such privalaged lives while he suffered endlessly, and because he's a copy of a great man and would never fit in there, was believable. It didn't make rational sense, but it wasn't meant to.
     
  2. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    That's pretty weak in terms of motives, saying "he's insane" and not exploring it further. Madness has a method to it, even insane people fall into patterns. It makes him seem like a cartoon villain, he might as well been blowing up planets for fun.

    Compare that to Khan, who has unstable, but there was a reasoning behind why he hated Kirk, Shinzon's hatred seems completely random.

    Shinzon's Romulan overlords were living a privileged life off of his labor, why he doesn't he try kill them instead. If one nation enslaves another, they will hate the nation enslaving them, not some other nation that has nothing to do with it. I think this movie would worked better if Shinzon was trying to destroy the Romulans and the Enterprise had to stop him.

    Heck I don't understand why the Remans would go along with Shinzon's plan or make him the leader, they have no beef with the federation and would upset if the romulans who tormented them were allowed to live, while Shinzon went off to kill some civilization who had nothing to do with their slavery. It doesn't make sense that the Remens would support Shinzon in this, they don't get anything out of it.

    And the average Federation citizen had nothing to do with his enslavement, if he's supposed to be insane, he wouldn't bother leaving Romulan civilians alone, he would want to kill them to.

    He let the Romulan military live, despite the fact that the military would enforce his enslave, it was military troops that would act as his overseers. So allow them to live, doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway you slice it, Shinzon's motives are overly convoluted.
     
  3. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    Along with the previous stuff folks said that liked I also liked the Romulan chick. :cool:
     
  4. Caligula

    Caligula Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hard not to like Dina Meyer. :bolian:
     
  5. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If I had to pick one good thing about the film, it would be the space battle. The space battle was cool. Characterisation aside, the film's action was spot on, and I enjoyed seeing it.
     
  6. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know I'm going to sound like I'm just deliberately trying to dislike things about Nemesis, but I'm really not. In fact, I desperately try to find things to like about any Trek production.

    However, I never cared for the space battle in that film. Yeah, the special effects were good. But it felt completely "off" to me, in that it didn't seem like a Trek battle. Something doesn't feel right.

    I think it may be the sound effects more than anything else that pull me out of it. Nothing sounds the way it has been established to sound. We'd seen the Enterprise-E engaged in battle multiple times by that point, and we'd seen huge fleet battles in DS9 with all sorts of classes of ships involved. Starfleet weapons look a certain way, act a certain way, and sound a certain way.

    It would be as if Lucas released a new Star Wars film and suddenly the blasters had the Trek phaser sound effects.

    Just really didn't feel right to me.
     
  7. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I'm no great fan of Nemesis, but I do think the final space battle was well-executed (if a bit too reminiscent of the Enterprise vs cloaked Bird of Prey battle in TUC).
     
  8. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think he was supposed to be insane. If he was, it kind of ruins the whole "dark mirror" angle of the character, as if he's genuinely crazy, his motives and actions aren't going to be rational or worth much analysis.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The very fact that he spends so much time and effort obsessing about how Picard sees him is for me the selling point on the theory that he goes after Earth in order to impress. More specifically, he does it in order to impress Picard.

    He may be a downtrodden slave and a victimized prisoner, but above all that, he is Picard, or almost so. Being a slave is just an excuse and ultimately a means; he's also a highly empowered soldier, and later a powerful rebellion leader. His life ain't so bad, not in Reman terms at least. But he's still only almost Picard. If Romulans did anything wrong, it was stopping him from being Picard. Jailing and forced labor was just how they did it.

    That part of the character works very well IMHO. It's no wonder he's all cardboard, when he was meant to be something and then allowed to be nothing. He has a single, extremely well founded goal in life, and he gradually works up to having the means to do something about it.

    And that's where the movie really fails IMHO. Going after Earth is a nice trick, just like sucking the life out of Picard is. He could do both without needing any reason other than "this is how I get Picard; this is how I get to be Picard". But his plotting should culminate in that. At one point or another, he should attempt to usurp Picard's powers and position, not just his blood.

    As the movie goes, we don't really learn whether Shinzon cared about Earth one way or another. The entire attack could have been pretense, a ruse to force Picard to do... something, just like planting of B-4 and assassinating the Senate forced him to act in a certain way. But the movie is lacking in this respect: Shinzon's ultimate goal is never revealed.

    I've ridden my hobby-horse around here before, but it's whinnying for another go, so... Replacing Data with B-4 is a fun if somewhat silly trick. The movie would conclude with much greater splendor if that one were mirrored by another: Shinzon finally getting what he wants, replacing Picard, becoming Picard. Had he been allowed to age from his Tom Hardy self to his Patrick Steward self, there could have been a heroic last struggle where it is left unclear which of the two Picards survives - all we know is that the survivor was the one who did the right thing in the end. Except that we're also shown that the one who didn't survive did the right thing, too, and heroically sacrificed himself...

    Now there's a good send-off for the good old cast. When two heroes both survive and perish, how can it fail to be twice as good as ST2:TWoK? ;)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Jim from Neighbours as the Praetor.
    The Senates execution.
    The space battle.
    Commander Donatra (though they could have done so much more with her).
    The Valdore.

    It's been a while since I last saw it, and everytime I think of Nemesis I always go to everything thats wrong with it, so this is a list of everything that still sticks oiut for me as a good thing.
     
  11. TenLubak

    TenLubak Commander Red Shirt

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    I like the litte meeting between Picard (old and Picard young) he wants to know about his bloodline, were we this were we that. but in the end the yound picard decides that he doesn't care, and was just putting around before putting his plan into action. I thought it was well acted and I felt a interested in this part where as most of the movie the dialouge was blah! In fact this movie was not as good as the other Star Trek's. I also liked the part where the whole bridge blows up and Picard calls for medical teams in his God echo voice. Like....maybe they should go to the other emergency au control bridge before that screen dies and they all get sucked off into space- correction sir, thats blown out. I suppose the medics are there to do what help the ppl that didnt blow out. I see that, but there would have needed them before it blew up too. I was also surpised that you couldnt see the front of the spaceship from the blow up bridge with a hole in. Odd, yeah i didn't like much about this movie, I tried to like it really hard. But not very good really. My sisters boyfreind stold it for crack money and havent replaced it yet, so thats not saying much either.

    I like the opening sequence, and the coolest camera work was the memory where the bad young Picard Shinzon is thinking of the mines with that elevator mine shot. And the opening titles were a nice change, and the music was good!

    I like that about NEMESIS.
     
  12. Captain Mike

    Captain Mike Commodore Commodore

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    Stuart Baird sucks as a director,..I would even go so far he sucks as an Editor,...Both of which made this film suffer the way it did. Was it a BAD movie altogether??? No, it wasn't but just NOT up to being Star Trek.
     
  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't quite agree. I thought Shinzon went after Earth because he finally bowed to the pressure of his Romulan allies-of-convenience, who wanted him to do this the whole time. I don't believe he had any interest at all in attacking Earth, much less using that action to prove something to Picard. By that point in the movie, I think both men realized they were not the same as the other.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When did we see a Romulan who wanted Earth attacked, much less destroyed? All of Shinzon's allies appeared to be solidly against the idea.

    What they wanted Shinzon to do was to proceed with "an attack on the Federation", with "defeating the Federation", apparently by rallying a joint army such as envisioned by the Romulan conspirators speaking to the Senate in the teaser. Shinzon's enraged sally from Romulan orbit towards Earth does not appear to be part of any plan agreed on with the conspirators.

    Fairly shortsighted on them, considering they had either placed a weapon dedicated to planeticide on the hands of their champion, or at least observed its existence.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And since when in Star Trek history, when the bad guy says he wants to attack "the Federation," it doesn't automatically equate attacking Earth, the "center" of the Federation?

    Really, there's no good reason why Shinzon decides to go for Earth other than that it was a) bad writing, or b) Earth=Federation.
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    He did it to show the Romulan people just how easy it was to do something that the Romulan Senate had tried and failed to do since the Romulan/Earth War of the 22nd century. The fact that it was the home planet of the man who shared his DNA was cream.
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't remember him saying or implying anything to that effect. I could be remembering things differently however...I'll have to rewatch that particular scene again.
     
  18. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah we're not given any indication at all for why Shinzon has it in so badly for Earth. About the most we can surmise is that it comes from jealousy over Picard's perfect life, and a desire to make Earth pay for not rescuing him or something.

    But the movie never really suggests or explores any of that.
     
  19. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps I'm remembering a John Logan interview, or the novelization.
     
  20. TenLubak

    TenLubak Commander Red Shirt

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    I like the music, the green mutara nebula and LT DATAs suicide. He pretended it was to save the ship but we all know it was for some other reason he killed himself.

    No um really the best part was the escape from Shinzons ship and when they steal picard from enterprise, he finally decides to stop putzing around and go thru w his evil plot, after he already killed the senate so yeah... go thru with it.