The Great Romulan Evacuation

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Mars, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re-read that quote. A pogo paradox, NOT a predestination one! Where the first changes, made to alter history, lead to the second changes that (re)create the original timeline. It's a loop that includes the creation of another timeline which is then (possibly? presumably?) erased.

    As for the Borg, the only was to make sense of the repeated retcons is to say the Borg were already coming as a result of FC and "Regeneration" and Q simply tipped us off to the long forgotten threat in "Q Who"

    As for what Seven knows, the reason she knew about FC was because of the signal sent by the survivors at the end of "Regeneration" (which in that way is a neat bit of fix fic)
     
  2. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Your explanation is still a stretch and requires a lot of contortion to make it fit. Granted VOY: Relativity doesn't make much sense time travel wise anyway. It's easier just to ignore that episode and 7 of 9's statement.

    I fail to understand how the events of First Contact were a Pogo Paradox. Allow me to break things down from my perspective.

    Timeline A. Original Timeline: From Kirk's era up to Picard's era. No mention of the Borg prior till that first encounter in Q Who. Few years later in First Contact, the Borg Sphere travels back in time and succeeds in rewriting history from the POV of the 24th century. Everyone on the ENT-E saw the Borgified Earth while inside the temporal wake. Therefore there was no alternate timeline. Meaning the unaltered history of Earth from TOS to TNG was supplanted and erased.

    Timeline B. Borg Winning Earth Timeline: Borg were successful in conquering and assimilating Earth in the 21st. This was the case even in the 24th Century we the audience and ENT-E crew saw.The Borg won and the original timeline was replaced with this one.

    Timeline C. Timeline close to the original but altered slightly: The ENT-E crew uses the same method the Borg use and travel back in time to stop the Borg. Arriving minutes after the Borg Sphere. The future is in high stakes jepoardy because the ENT-E's future has been wiped from history, and they are not in a alternate reality like ST XI. The ENT-E crew wins, but their are death's of people who didn't die, polluting of the time stream by giving Zefram Cochrane knowledge of the future and things he'll say, including showing his what the ENT-E looks like, and the Borg drone bodies found in the Artic in ENT: Regeneration. The ENT-E is successful in returning to their own future by Picards words, but there will be differences. Small but largely the Federation was shown to be the same. This timeline supplants and erases the the Borg Winning Timeline.

    Here is where VOY: Relativity and 7 of 9's statement falls on it's face. There was only ever 1 timeline of events. Linearly speaking one kept being supplanted by another. 7 of 9 can't possibly be aware of the timeline where the Borg succeeded in stopping Cochrane and winning (my timeline B), and a timeline where the ENT-E prevents the Borg from winning and their timeline (B) from ever happening. Pogo Paradox is just a casualty loop which is the same as a predestination paradox. It can't be predestined that the Borg would use time travel, succeed at assimilating earth in the 21st century and be seen in 24th century, but all lose in 21st and have their victory negated from the pov of the 24th century since the Federation was restored and their was no Borg world.

    This is not the case for Star Trek XI, because that was not lineare time travel. As soon as the nova and Nero passed through the black hole, an alternated timeline was formed. Every little thing they did shaped this word different from the Prime timeline. From killing people, to the Kelvin and shuttles taking sensor scans of the future Narada, to technology changing as seen in the movie, to Vulcan being destroyed, and to finally Nero being defeated and his ship remains being sucked in to another blackhole. Which given the rules ST Xi plays by probably made ANOTHER alternate timeline.

    Take a line from Doctor Who, Time Can be rewritten. Time travel alters things as we know them to be. The time travel employed in FC and Voyage Home was linear. Where every series of events perpetrated by a traveler removed the previous ones from the standpoint of the future. Star Trek XI was chaos theory/ butterfly effect time travel. The slightest change to established events made the universe operate and progress differently.

    Edit: Forgot to add the one could argue that the what we saw in Star Trek ENT was a result of the changes to the time stream. I know some flirt with the notion that ENT happened in an alternate reality given the nature of the show and how from TOS-VOY there was never mention of another ship named Enterprise before Kirk's and I believe someone cited the Enterprise portriat with Ilia from TMP.

    However in Regeneration, Captain Archer does say that Zefram Cochrane recorded and spoke about his first warp flight, the Borg and the ENT-E crew who helped and defeated the Borg. Canonizes ENT in the eyes of my timeline C theory. Reaffirms that there was only ever one timeline for the whole fiasco.
     
  3. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    The only problem with your theory is that without the Enterprise, he clearly would have gotten Earth too. At neither planet did the "mechanisms for how he could have been defeated" play a role if you exclude the Enterprise. As I pointed out, the Enterprise should have been well and truly "excluded" if Nero had made more sensible decisions.

    We are still going to be surprised the first time it happens. Interestingly, the other consistency appears to be that it doesn’t matter where you deploy it or how much there is, red matter still produces pretty much the same effect which seems to always be a tunnel rather than a point source even while the gravity gradient is building.


    Understandable.

    Actually Spock Prime would be addressing an almost certain future in his new current reality (the alt universe) albeit 130 odd years hence. Namely the destruction of Romulus unless Nero has indeed already prevented it. Assuming he didn’t, such comments seem pretty relevant and a "logical" starting point for further intrigue, or so it seems to me.
     
  4. Mars

    Mars Commander Red Shirt

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    Easier to assume that Spock's description of it was hyperbole rather than an accurate description of what the Supernova was going to do, after all even in the movie, he does admit to exaggeration sometimes.
     
  5. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    When Nero told Pike he prevented genocide he was talking about destroying Vulcan, because that's the context of the conversation Pike and Nero were having. Nero then goes on to say he will estroy all the other Federation planets to make Romulus safe. Nero is paranoid and thinks and blames the Federation for Romulus' destruction by 'FREAK Super Nova', and somehow destroying Vulcan was going to prevent that.

    Alternate timelines may change events for people and their lives, but the supernova that destroyed Romulus in the Prime universe is still going to happen in time. A star blowing up wouldn't be affected by whether people died on the Kelvin or Kirk being born in space or technology accelerating. The nova will come and unless the Romulans listen to warnings, and given this is TOS Romulans I rather doubt they will.

    Tangent: You would think that after the Dominion War and the events of NEM the Rommies would be more willing to listen to the Federation. I can't help but think that there was some form of evacuation of Romulus before the nova hit, and the people who remained their were like hurricane or tornado victims in our world. The news of the disaster is forecast way in advance but not all heed the warning. This concept will likely be ignored by the Abrams crew because they aren't telling stories from the Prime universe and they are not doing anymore time travel bits. The aftermath of the Super nova and the displacement of the Romulan survivors would make a great 5th movie for the TNG crew. Have the TNG crew finally realize unification between the Romulan refugees and Vulcans. Call it Star Trek Unity. Such a pretty dream that will never happen I know.
     
  6. Mars

    Mars Commander Red Shirt

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    Foreknowledge of this event will cause some Romulans to evacuate sooner, I think individual Romulans will decide whether to leave, with 129 years to make a decision, Romulus will gradually depopulate. Romulans are fairly long lived, so they'll probably make the decision early.
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    But if you're ignoring evidence from tike travel episodes when discussing time travel, it all becomes kind of moot.
    I say there never was a timeline C, just A to B and back again. Like a pogo. Just because we never knew about FC and "Regeneration" until we saw those films and episodes made later, doesn't mean they're not how it "always happened"
    Seven didn't know about Timeline B where the Borg won. Just the one (my A, your C) where the Borg went back and were stopped, leading to "Regeneration" where the signal is sent, beginning it all again
    According to Watching the Clock, one-way time travel creates a branching alternate parallel reality (as in STXI), but when the temporal anomaly is two-way (as in YE and others), the created timelines are entangled and the new one overwrites the old.
    Different writers with different ideas. I think there's even a quote somewhere from Branon Braga saying the timeline WAS changed, but then the show ended with "In a Mirror, Darkly" and "These are the Voyages" tying ENT directly to TOS and TNG, meaning all those timeline changes made in ENT led to the timeline TOS/TNG and the rest, not diverted from it.

    Watching the Clock makes it seem like all Trek's time travels fit together flawlessly (a truly epic achievement by Christopher) but even that had to do a little bit of fudging to make it all fit (and it flat-out ignores TAS' far-out "The Counter-Clock Incident")
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    That depends if the supernova was a naural phenomena or not. Star Trek Online says the Remans used protomatter to cause it.

    In TV/film Trek, we've seen supernovae caused as a side effect of weapons used in the Q civil war ("The Q and the Grey") and we know from "By Inferno's Light" that the Dominion have the know-how to cause one (Changeling Bashir attempted to destroy the Bajoran system, DS9, the wormhole and the allied AQ fleet by flying a modified Runabout into the Bajoran sun)

    Considering the extreme/magic effects of the STXI supernova, I doubt it was normal. Although, considering how things sometimes work in Trek's world, you never know....
     
  9. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Its a Champagne Supernova
     
  10. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Why would he exaggerate when he simply could have said "threatened Romulus"? He's talking to people who know what a supernova is. He's showing that this was a much bigger threat that a run of the mill supernova. After all, he's still trying to stop it AFTER Romulus has been destroyed. Why bother?
     
  11. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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  12. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Indeed? Easier for whom?

    Even before the 2009 movie, Spock had been known to embroider or exaggerate on occasion. It was something he'd learned from one James T. Kirk - a concept he found difficult to grasp at first, but came eventually to see as a tool which was potentially useful under certain circumstances.

    However, any such exaggeration would always have been for a purpose logically arrived-at, and employed toward a specific end. What reason could Spock have had in this instance for deliberately misrepresenting the magnitude of the "supernova"? For what purpose and to what end would he tell nuKirk that "One hundred twenty-nine years from now, a star will explode, and threaten to destroy the galaxy" if, in fact, it was merely an "ordinary" supernova and no such threat existed?

    Does that really sound like Spock to you?
     
  13. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Yeah, this is Star Trek. A supernova threatening the galaxy could totally be possible. Maybe somebody shot the star with their deflector dish and created some crazy subspace explosion in the middle of the star that will destroy all of creation! Who the fuck knows?
     
  14. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    It exists before the Enterprise follows the sphere back into the past.
    It made sense to me. Trek (especially Voyager) is filled with lots of filler technobabble, but this certainly doesnt apply.
    Characters vanishing when their timeline is erased is the exception in Trek, not the rule.
    The Enterprise was caught in the "temporal wake" of the time sphere. It was depicted quote clearly and described in the dialogue. It essentially kept them in a remaining bubble of their own timeline, able to see the changes made and given the oppertunity to right things.

    Looks like they got around it:D
     
  15. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    They weren't in a bubble of their own timeline they were displaced in time and space. Unaffected by the changes to their own reality history by the Borg's incursion to the past. If that wasn't the case then why would the ENT-E crew bother following the Borg to past? If their future would continue on despite the Borg conquering Earth in the 21st century. I matters because there future was in jeopardy. The 24th century earth that was Borgified became the established reality. Data even says the temporal wake is the cause of their immunity to the changing of history. First Contact like i said employs linear time travel. The ENT-E surviving the Borg incursion was a fluke really. Had they not entered the temporal wake they too would've been erased from history.
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The temporal wake is what I meant. A little bubble of their own time left over. And I agree.

    The Enterprise-E would have been erased otherwise - but when a character travels backward through time, those rules never seem to apply. Otherwise any changes they made would lead to their own erasure in the past, and thus the erasure of anything they did, making the whole thing undo itself.

    It seems that once you travel into the past, you become part of that timeframe. If it is erased, you're gone, but if your origin timeframe is erased, it doesn't affect you.
     
  17. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    So a "Temporal Wake" explains how they were able to see a future which would never exist in the same timeline.

    :rolleyes:


    There is no logic to that at all. Let's put aside the technobable and (again) take it for what it is -


    1. The crew is following the Borg into the past.
    2. The crew can see that the Earth is Borgified.
    3. The crew are at no point NOT traveling with the Borg into the past while this occurs.


    OK, now explain how they can see an event which they prevent?

    If they are traveling with those who changed their present, how can the 24th century Earth be Borgified?

    Explain how the Earth had time to be Borgified when there is no interval between when the Enterprise begins to follow them into the past and when the Borg arrive?


    The Pogo Paradox is BS. The only way there can be a 24th century Borgified Earth at any point is if the Enterprise crew fail to stop the Borg in the 21st century.

    They don't.

    That future cannot exist in the same timeline/time-space.

    If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.








    __________________one more time_________________







    If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.



    That Borgified Earth can only exist in an alternate reality in which the Enterprise-E crew either fails to follow the Borg into the past, or fails to stop them in the past. And if I recall correctly, a few seconds after both ships leave the 24th century, that "assimilated" Earth is still floating around.

    It's destined to happen if the crew fails.

    They don't.

    But an assimilated Earth exists.

    So at some point both we and they see an alternate reality in which they failed. It's a reality which continues to exist after both parties leave the 24th century.

    The Enterprise crew succeeds, thus that future cannot and will never happen in the SAME time and space...EVER. Sorry, it just can't. The assimilated Earth can only exist in an alternate reality, one which they would have to intersect with during the pursuit in order to see a result of an inevitable failure.


    :vulcan:
     
  18. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Nope. We know it t happened that way because we saw it happen. We saw Earth change.

    Star Trek science =/= real world science.

    If you want Trek with real world science then be prepared to get rid of Spock, K'Ehleyr, B'Elanna, transporters, warp drive, phasers, alternate universes such as the mirror universe or the one from the latest movie, etc. All based on scientific nonsense. They take a very broad concept (crossbreeding for instance) and do it entirely wrong. But, it makes for good drama which is the real point. If you want real science, watch Nova or the Discovery Channel. If you want sci-fi adventure with a moral or two added to the mix, watch Star Trek.
     
  19. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    And so did the crew.


    Soooo you're implying my opinion of Voyager's use of the Pogo Paradox (a REAL WORLD theory) as an explanation for a string of events is actually spot on, since I consider it a LOL-Technobable! moment, right?


    OK guy.

    If you're looking for a place where people pretend that real life doesn't apply so much to what they're a fans of, chances are you'll only find that kind of world on a Marijuana Fans message board. Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror, Adventure, etc., - it's all pretty much bound to have some serious discussions and outright mudslinging at one point or another with regards to how much real world stuff applies to the unreal. Star Trek fandom is no different.

    Surprise over.


    Now I realize that there are many aspects of Trek "science" that are based on the near impossible, or the completely impossible. I've been a fan since 1975, so it's no surprise to me. What were talking about (at this point) is time travel and aspects of what can or can not change.

    That's real world shit being ---->USED<---- in a story...


    ...and it's THAT aspect which is the subject we're talking about now. Personally, I like the fact that people are discussing it AND challenging what I'm saying - helps me reaffirm my beliefs in what does and does not make sense regarding the REAL WORLD theories of time travel.


    But hey, maybe we shouldn't discuss anything since it's all taking place in a fake universe, right?


    :bolian:
     
  20. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    That will be enough of that. Drop the personal jabs, please.