The Genesis planet...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. The piece beamMe dropped out of the middle of my quotes was where Saavik says:

    Exactly, including the space lab being wrenched from orbit and dissolved.
     
  2. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Yeah, since the movie didn't give us a definite answer.
    Both interpretations are possible.
    I just find one more likely than the other.

    Don't act stupid.
    We know it happened. She is there. The how on the other hand (and this all being sci-fi) ...

    Even those lines are open to interpretation.
     
  3. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    How so?

    "A new world being born" is quite clear.
     
  4. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    So, Conan Doyle wrote about a different planet than the Earth in his The Lost World?
     
  5. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    "The Lost World" is an example of where "world" has a meaning other than "planet."

    The ST2 script specifically says "planet". I'm not aware that "planet" has a meaning other than "Big round thing that orbits a star."
     
  6. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    "Instead of a dead moon a living, breathing planet."

    In the movie itself (in the presentation video) Calor Marcus' "planet" is born out of a "moon".
    It would seem that their terminology is all over the place.

    Considering how fast Genesis forms, it is a far more logical and easier explanation that the Genesis-wave re-formed Regula.
    It has an "instantaneous affect" on an already existing body; but I think it would take a little longer than just a few minutes for all that mass, all that matter to gather to form a planet - Genesis effect or not.
     
  7. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    At least in hindsight, the rapid formation of the planet foreshadows its rapid evolution and death.
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    In a universe where faster than light travel is commonplace, how can you tell?
     
  9. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    What?
     
  10. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Because the Presentation Tape was a simulation, made years earlier, of how the effect might work when directed at a dead moon. But, spurred on by the success with the Genesis Cave within Regula, Reliant's crew had been asked to find a "completely lifeless" planet.

    The script states that the effect we see is "the 'Genesis Effect' WE SAW in its earliest experiments, now seems familiar on a gigantic, cosmic scale. The blinding flash at first, followed by the same tumbling turbulence of the miniature test. It is awesome."

    The torpedo was not meant to be detonated inside a nebula. The wave was not constrained and its effects were bigger and unpredictable.

    Another thought: if Regula was simply transformed, why not keep calling it Regula, instead of "The Genesis Planet"? What are Klingons doing poking around Regula, presumably in Federation space; doesn't it make more sense that they are trying to check out why a huge nebula disappeared?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Since we suspend our incredulity to accept that faster than light travel is possible in the Trekverse, how can we say that the rapid formation of the Genesis planet from the nebula strains credibility? Faster than light travel should strain it even more!
     
  12. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Regula appears to be outside of the Nebula based on the pictures. It might even be outside the Genesis Wave's range. Weren't the Enterprise and the Reliant deep in the Nebula when the Genesis Device went off?
     
  13. Jerikka Dawn

    Jerikka Dawn Commander Red Shirt

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    Except that the post you are replying to was specifically responding to an entirely different line that you quoted. No one was talking about the word "planet" because that's not what you brought up:

    It should also be noted that in pretty much almost every context, a dead class D moon being transformed into a lush class M planet would warrant terminology such as "new world" and anyone in ear shot of the conversation wouldn't give it a second thought.
     
  14. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Well, given that Regula is clearly not inside the nebula, and given that the detonation of the Genesis Device happens within the nebula, how could the planetoid be caught in its effects?

    Give it up. There's no way that Regula became Genesis.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    To the contrary, nothing in the movie(s) gives support to the idea that Genesis would be capable of creating planets out of nothingness. That's neither what it was created for, nor what it was credited for.

    The device has exacting requirements that keep a starship occupied in an ultimately fruitless search for what sounds like months at least. It's not going to mutate itself into a different device altogether (not unless itself struck by another Genesis device at least ;) ).

    Why should this be a problem? We never get any indication that the nebula would for be a barrier for the Genesis wave in any manner. Obviously, it is going to reach Kirk's starship unless Kirk goes to warp - so just as obviously, it's going to reach a planetoid that Kirk only very recently departed at damaged impulse.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    They were in the heart of a very large, very dense nebula that was out of visual range of Regula even at it's boundry, based on the rear facing shots from both the Enterprise and Reliant when finally entering the nebula.
     
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    When did anyone say it created the planet out of nothing? You clearly see the nebula vanishing in the movie, so the Genesis device is creating the planet out of the nebula!

    A different device? Who says it did that?

    Carol Marcus's own proposal tape says that the device is intended to be used on a "lifeless space body; a moon or other dead form." Her exact words. A nebula would certainly count as a lifeless space body, yes? She then goes on to say, "Matter is reorganized, with life-generating results." Again, this shows that the device can reorganize matter, so why is it impossible for it to reorganize nebula matter?

    I never said that the nebula gas would be a barrier. The DISTANCE is the barrier. The Mutara Nebula was far enough away from Regula that we never saw it when the Enterprise was at the planetoid. And even when the Enterprise approaches it, you can still see the whole thing on the screen - bear in mind that nebulas are very big, so the Enterprise would still have been quite a long way from it.

    And finally, the Enterprise only has four minutes to escape. They can't go very far in four minutes limited to Impulse speed. However, the journey to the nebula could easily have taken quite a bit longer. We saw the crew of the Enterprise preparing the ship for battle, and obviously it will take them some time to do that.

    So exactly how big a blast radius do you think the Genesis device has?
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see any of the ambiguities you postulate. We have a pretty good idea of how far the nebula is from the Regula rock, say. For one thing, Spock believes they can escape Khan by going there - which already means Spock doesn't think their escape will be due to a long chase in which they outrun Khan. Indeed, this they clearly cannot do, because Khan easily catches up with them and fires a torpedo at them. Almost immediately thereafter, Kirk is so close to the nebula that Khan wisely ponders giving up pursuit, until goaded by Kirk not to.

    There simply isn't any plot time for or plot logic in a long, slow chase where Khan gradually catches up. After all, Khan doesn't move at full speed initially. If there were a chase, he'd win it by throttling up. But there is just this surprise pounce from Regula to nebula, during which Khan doesn't have time to think through the implications.

    Indeed, the trip from Regula to the final confrontation might well take just the four minutes specified for the escape. But there would be nothing wrong with the distance being more like twenty light-minutes, plenty enough to make the local star basically invisible (although perhaps still capable of creating the odd lighting effects in the nebula, assuming the camera just ramped up the contrast). There is no reason to think the Genesis wave would have its range limited to any specific figure, other than the implicit "It will engulf us if we don't warp but the rest of the universe will still be fine".

    Obviously not - since the nebula disappears along with the starship, but nothing is created in its place. We see but ejecta there, on its way somewhere else.

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd1033.jpg

    The camera then cuts away from this location, which remains visibly empty. And then we have bridge action. And then we see the already readymade planet, in an unknown direction at an unknown distance.

    It may be at the center of the wave. Or it may be at one of its impact points, just as in the simulation we saw.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    No, in the presentation simulation they turned "a dead moon" into a "living, breathing planet".

    To bad the film doesn't show us that.

    Who said something else?

    Yes, it could still reach Regula.

    Perhaps because it became the culmination of the Genesis Project when the Genesis Device's explosion turned it from a "great rock in space" into a "living planet". (But really, you'd have to ask Harve Bennett.)


    Have you seen Star Trek III?
     
  20. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Honestly.

    [​IMG]

    Did you watch that movie with your eyes closed?