The Genesis planet...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    I've always wondered about this....in the Wrath of Khan, which planet became the Genesis planet?
     
  2. RyanKCR

    RyanKCR Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It wasn't a planet. Genesis used the Mutara Nebula to create a star and planet.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Which sounds pretty unlikely, considering that the makers of Genesis deemed their creation an inflexible piece of equipment ("can't cram another byte in it"), and it was not programmed to create a planet out of nothingness as a default.

    What the mechanism could quite plausibly have been programmed to do is convert the Regula asteroid. After all, it was right there and available, and the scientists had not yet secured their desired "empty class M" world for the final experiments.

    We further know that Regula was close to the point of detonation, as our heroes and villains had only recently departed it at impulse speed. The star that this Class D planet circled would also be conveniently nearby. In contrast, if the mechanism created a new star, one would have to explain what happened to the old one...

    Since our usually detail-minded hero Spock calls the planet simply "Regula", rather than something like "Regula I" (the apparent name of the laboratory, then?) or "Regula IV", it might be that the star system does not feature other planets or planetoids of note, leaving Regula our only plausible option for the Genesis planet.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. RyanKCR

    RyanKCR Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But we also see, as soon as the detonation occurs, the nebula disappears. Also the planet seems to be at the same location as the explosion.
     
  5. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    Yup, the nebula is blasted into concentric layers that shrink back and we see the planet forming from the core outwards from scratch.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Umm, no.

    We see that either the detonation of the Genesis device or the associate explosion of the starship removes the nebula in an eyeblink. We then see immobile smoke rings being generated at regular distances outside the explosion, like surf atop otherwise invisible standing waves. Then the camera cuts to bridge action, and then back to a viewscreen image of the planet in turmoil.

    There is no way to tell whether the planet in turmoil was at the center of the explosion or not. There is no trace of smoke rings in the turmoil image, least of all them "shrinking". Nor is there any indication that the planet is "forming". It's merely glowing a fiery orange, surrounded by amber clouds.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

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    I simply go by the idea that the Genesis wave travelled to the nearest planetoid, (Genesis was rather small) and re-arranged it, into what became the Genesis planet.

    After all, the Genesis planet was in orbit of a star. (which would not have been created by the Genesis device)

    Like Timo has said, the Genesis detonation simply destroyed the Mutara nebula.
     
  8. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I had always assumed it was the Regula asteroid which became the Genesis planet - it came as quite a surprise when I started reading about the mutara nebula "forming" into this new world - nothing in the film supports this notion.
     
  9. Maple Dog

    Maple Dog Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    And nothing says the contrary,as others say its either another planet that was transformed,or its the nebula.
     
  10. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    And this is essentially how Vonda McIntyre described it in her ST II novelization.

    Until the protomatter subplot was retconned into ST III, the main reason the new planet was so unstable was because, instead of the Genesis torpedo being detonated over the surface of an existing planet, and terraforming it, Khan exploded it inside the Reliant - and the device's program drew in material from the ship, its crew and the nebula gases instead... to create an entire planet. McIntyre also explains how the Genesis Cave and the Genesis Planet both appear to have natural light sources/suns.

    A different tie-in book, William Rotsler's "Star Trek II Biographies", incorrectly assumes that it was Regula that was transformed, IIRC - and that the new planet is to be called Spock. In either the DC Comic or the ST III novelization (can't recall which), a revisit to Regula finds all the plant life overgrown and evolved, due to David's use of protomatter.

    I've also heard of fans who reckoned it was Ceti Alpha V that was transformed at the end of ST II, but this would mean that Kyle, Beach and other crew from Reliant would have been killed. Kirk says that they are heading off to rescue the marooned crew.
     
  11. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

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    A cop out if you ask me, that ruins the whole characterisation of David Marcus. In both TWOK and TSFS, there are many subtle and some not-so-subtle indications, that David is very much like Kirk, despite not actually knowing that he is his father. But there is quite a major difference between them, which makes the characterisation of David, brilliant.

    David has the "leap without looking" attitude of Kirk, demonstrated by his willingness to run off into the middle of a jungle, in the pitch black of night, to recon a hostile group. The same attitude is what gets him killed, as he throws himself at a Klingon and engages him in combat, to protect Saavik and Spock. Had it been Kirk who had been in his place, Kirk would have not only survived the hand to hand combat with the Klingon, but he would have probably taken out the Klingon party as they were searching for the science team.

    The point is, is that David lacked the finesse, skill-sets, and experience that Kirk had in abundance. They had similar attitudes and personality traits, but where Kirk would take risks, that would pay off, (even if they went wrong at first) David took risks, and always suffered the consequences.

    The failure of Genesis should always be down to David taking a huge gamble with protomatter. It preserves his character, and the tragedy that goes with it. It also preserves those similarities and important differences, when comparing him to Kirk.
     
  12. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    There is at least one shot in TWOK that (more than) suggest that there is a star close by Regula.
     
  13. Ghel

    Ghel Commander Red Shirt

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    "The failure of Genesis should always be down to David taking a huge gamble with protomatter. It preserves his character, and the tragedy that goes with it." -- Admiral M

    Ironically, this is the very thing I LIKE about the Genesis Wave novels. If I remember correctly, everyone at the time of Kirk believe that the problem with the Genesis device was the use of protomatter. It was a gamble, and in this case, it failed with disastrous results. However, it is only years later that some scientists in the Federation recognized that the protomatter didn't cause the failure of the Genesis device, but rather how and where the device was activated. Much like an artist who dies in poverty only to have his paintings make millions only after his death, Marcus' achievements would never be recognized until well after it was meaningless to those working the project because Marcus took a gamble and used material that was considered too risky.
     
  14. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Yet less than a hundred years later proto-matter is used to ignite a dead star in DSN.
     
  15. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    That's how I always interpreted it. The Regula planetoid was not visible from the Mutara Nebula even before Reliant exploded, obviously full impulse power for so many minutes away from the planetoid was far enough to leave it behind. We see from the Enterprise looking back the way they came, just Reliant behind her.

    So it could still be there in the system, just at some distance from Genesis, being too small and dark to see at all.

    As others have pointed out the star is still there in the system close enough and remains there after the planet goes, so it does seem to be the same natural star.
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, but the Genesis Planet is not Regula. Regula wasn't a rogue wanderer; of course it had a sun. I'm saying that McIntyre also explains how there is a light source inside the Genesis Cave, deep within the planet.
     
  17. Maple Dog

    Maple Dog Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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  18. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    So where, or what is the source of light from inside Regula?? How do we know there's a light source near the nebula? Just a side note....I wonder if the Romulans would use the genesis device to create a new Romulus elsewhere....?
     
  19. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Do I really have to go and dig out the book? :p

    'Cos it's not dark? The ships cast shadows across each other?

    Why go to the effort? They are an Empire and presumably have a few conquered worlds to their name.
     
  20. blueziggy

    blueziggy Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    if i remember correctly, and its been a while since i watch TWoK, but doesnt the end show genesis with a moon orbiting? i always assumed the moon was regula and the planet was formed from the nebula. There is already a star there as well when the enterprise first arrives at regula, otherwise how could there be a light and dark side as shown on the viewscreen?

    also, iirc when kirk says "my god carol look at it" doesnt the view screen show masses pulling together to create the planet?
     

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