The episode "Distant Origin"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by oddsigve, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    to be fair, fossils are burried deep underground, protected from weather and other things that can erode them.

    nature takes back abandoned cities very quickly. There are abandoned cities currently where nature has almost completely erased them. And that's after less than 100 years. After 65 million years there wouldn't be a shred of evidence left of a city.

    there was a great show about this called life after humans or something like that.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And you think the roads and evidence of civilization wouldn't be underground? How did those fossils grow to be underground after all? Years and years of sediment burial. Sure the stones will crumble and the wood will rot, but the metalwork, I should think some small percentage of it would come out in tact just as the fossils did.
     
  3. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    after 65 million years, no I dont think there would be a shred of a city left. Look at a parking lot of an empty store, look how fast weeks break through the black top and concrete. so after 65 million years yeah I think it's entirely possibly tat there wouldn't be anything left
     
  4. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Dude, it's not just "underground", it's the pressure and the temperature. Do you think fossils always come out intact? Most of them are deformed in some way. Imagine how all our stuff would look if baked at many hundreds of degrees while being squished by tons of force for millions of years! Of course, you must first have a grasp of the scale of "millions of years"...if you don't have that, I can't help you.

    Even if some shred of metal work was recovered, would it be recognizable as worked metal? Or would it just look like ore? Would it be convincing evidence of an advanced civilization? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a little lump of metal wouldn't be particularly extraordinary....
     
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But they found tea cups intact resting beside the Titanic.

    I expect no less from the dinos!!!
     
  6. Pondwater

    Pondwater Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One of my faves from Season 3. Especially when they complained about the smell of humans. Much like (TVH,DS9 and then in the S7 episode "Prophecy") complaint about Klingon odors. :lol:
     
  7. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    In 65 million years from now, do you think there will be fossil humans and yet no sign of our civilisation? No building foundations, mines, large areas of concrete, etc?
     
  8. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Surely concrete doesn't last 65 million years?
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd bet the some of the rebar in it would stand a good chance of lasting.
     
  10. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    65 million years is an incredibly long time. I don't think any of you are grasping the scale of time here. What would rebar-reinforced concrete look like after deep burial and metamorphosis at high temperature and pressure for that long? Assuming it would be recognizable and easily stumbled upon by archeologists or paleontologists is naive.
     
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't know if the dinosaurs are portrayed as *more* immoral than humans. They were arrogant, just like humans, and saw less developed cultures as inferior, just like humans.

    I thought the episode was a little too silly. If they were going to introduce a race that was much more powerful than humans they shouldn't have completely ignored that this was an established part of the universe.

    And yeah, the cities would have been long deteriorated after 65 million years. But they would have left behind a whole lot of metallic alloys.
     
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Well, granted, I AM making the assumption that there are things in our civilisation that will last longer than mere old BONE, but if you can find some source that shows that human bones will be the last traces left of our civilisation, please feel free to post it and I'll retract my claim.

    However, I think it's safe to say that rebar-reinforced concrete, or cast iron, or titanium mountainb ike frames, or whatever would survive significantly better than a human bone would under the same conditions.
     
  13. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    "Mere" bone? Are you joking? And what source would you accept? A scientific notebook from an alien paleontologist of 100 million years from now that happened to fall through a wormhole and into my lap? What source do you expect me to find?

    I don't know if I even understand your question. You want me to demonstrate somehow that bones - which fossilize and have demonstrably lasted across millions of years, even hundreds of millions of years - will not be outlasted by:

    • rebar-reinforced concrete - which already looks like rocks because concrete is just a mix of cemented rocks. After millions of years it's still going to look just like a rock. Most people already have a hard time telling a piece of concrete from rock now. And the rebar will just rust and react with everything over millions of years. Rebar-reinforced concrete isn't going to last across millions of years.
    • cast iron - which would just look like a lump of rusted iron ore after millions of years in the rock cycle, if it remained in one lump, which is highly unlikely, since it is brittle and will break eventually. Even if a lump of "cast" iron (it wouldn't be "cast" anymore after millions of years) were found by future archaeologists or paleontologists, what would that prove?
    • titanium, which oxidizes eventually at high temperatures, too; it's not indestructible, you know, and let's face it, it's not the most common material in our civilization. Even if a titanium bike frame lasted intact across millions of years, what do you think the odds of it being found are?
     
  14. oddsigve

    oddsigve Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Sounds logical :)
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    If you'd read the meaning of my post, you will discover that I meant that it is almost impossible that there will come a day when human bones are the only evidence left of human civilisation. We have created structures designed to last for a very long time. The pyramids, the Great Wall of China. they may not survive in a form we can recognise, but an investigation will reveal non-natural origins. Other examples could include the vast road networks across many countires, or the foundations built to support the many absolutely huge buildings that we have constructed. Also dams. Even if they are reduced to apparent rocks, an investigation will show that they are very unusual rocks.

    The fact is that any space faring culture will leave behind evidence of that culture in some form.
     
  16. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What if a super race beamed out all non-natural substances?
     
  17. vulcan redshirt

    vulcan redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If there had been an ancient technical civilisation on Earth, there would be evidence. Given how flimsy some critters were that did get fossilised, for example dinosaur eggs, some types of sea shell, insects even, preservation of some remains would be likely. Metals would oxidise, but would leave unusually concentrated zones of elevated concentrations, and in un-natural patterns. for example, deep sea shipwrecks will oxidise, but there will always be a localised abundance of metals in the approximate shape and size of that vessel, unless tectonic process distort those sediments. However, certain inert metals, such as gold and platimum would not degrade, however may be crushed and distorted.

    also, any technically advanced civilisation would likely have left evidence of mining in the form of a network of backfilled tunnels. since even ancient trace fossils of burrowing animals have been preserved in locations, again one would expect evidence.

    lastly, one would expect to see a depletion in fossil fuels older than a certain age, as a previous technical species would likely have used a lot of this material up , with only newer fossil fuels forming in the millions of years since.

    End real life section

    if the Voth were truly from Earth, it would therefore seem more likely that they were transplanted by a visiting species, perhaps whilst at a stone-age level of advancement, and continued their development in the DQ. Think of the relocation of that group of Boraalans by Nicolai Rozhenko. If they ever developed into an advanced civilisation, eventually, their scientists would notice a paleontological gap, with no direct ancestors, unlike humans, where there is a direct evolutionary lineage.
     
  18. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    There would still be traces, such as evidence of severe injuries that were healed. Besides, that is a HUGE strecth, and far more consistent with my Preservers hypothesis.
     
  19. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Oh? What kind of evidence do you expect to remain for the non-natural origins of the Great (Rock) Wall of China, or the (Rock) Pyramids of Giza after millions of years? If you think 5,000 years is old, try imagining a span one thousand times longer! What do you think will remain of those structures after 5 million years, or 50 million?

    Maybe, but the entire asphalt road network of the world would just end up a very thin band among the much thicker rocks in the stratigraphic record. We just haven't been here that long, geologically speaking, and our remains aren't going to be that extensive.

    Evidence, yes. Extensive and easily recognizable evidence, no, I don't agree.
     
  20. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Oh my God, are you REALLY saying that you think the most long-lasting evidence of all of Human civilisation is going to be a bloody femur? Get real.