The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by the praetor, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think so...

    Kruge is using "preservation" as a justification for his actions. But in the very same dialogue shows what his real ambition is.

    This is just political posturing. The Klingon ambassador was more worried about getting Kirk extradited than the Genesis Device. He doesn't demand any information on Genesis. He doesn't demand any information on the "secret base". They wanted Kirk.

    I don't think that either exchange proves anything about the general Klingon mindset about outsiders.
     
  2. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Klingons never seem to view the Romulans or Cardassians as a threat to their empire. They are enemies for sure, but the Klingons never seem to present them as the threat the Federation was during their "Cold War" era days.

    The Dominion is a threat and the Klingons react to it in ways similar to how they reacted to the Federation, but this time the Federation is there with them to try to keep them pointed at the Dominion. Remember that the Dominion was not even known to exist by the Klingon Empire until 2370 (when everyone else on the Bajoran side the Wormhole found out). That's nearly 80 years after Praxis exploded.
     
  3. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Out of interest what period of time do you think a soceity needs to undergo a dramatic change? One Hundred years, a thousand years?

    It could have been going on far longer than what the show potrays, and more moderates managed to get the upperhand in the period between TOS and TNG rather than the periods pre-TOS.
     
  4. the praetor

    the praetor Ensign Red Shirt

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    The two are not mutually exclusive. Kruge's wanting to get a hold of the Genesis specs didn't negate his paranoia.

    The Klingon ambassador made a passionate case that the Feds were out to annihilate his people. Considering how the Klingons had been portrayed up to that point, it made sense. The Klingons had displayed a paranoid xenophobic mind set.

    Were the Klingons prepared for a full scale war with the Feds during the time of TVH? Were they seeking war with the Feds? You probably know more than me.

    It seemed to me that Kirk was really a scapegoat. The Klingons didn't want, or perhaps they couldn't afford, to have a full scale war with the Feds at that time. Blaming Kirk for the genocidal Genesis "torpedo" was more convenient.

    Afterall, in ST5, the Klingons, who were bent on getting Kirk, had Kirk where they wanted him -- in their gunsight. But they let him go. I guess it wasn't all about Kirk.

    In any case, it's ok that different viewers interpret the actions they see on the screen differently.
     
  5. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^You're obsessed with this idea that because the klingons seriously mistrust the federation, they must be xenophobic. It's just not true. They're the two sides in a long, ongoing cold war - of course the klingons suspected the federation was up to no good. They considered the federation a threat to them, so anything the federation did would be met with a certain amount of suspicion. However, you've already been provided with plenty of examples of OTHER races that the klingons did not treat with suspicion. There's a difference between distrusting one nation and being 'xenophobic'. Real xenophobes cannot trust other cultures. At all. The Klingons were not xenophobic.
     
  6. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While they distrust the Federation, it is the Humans they hate the most. Vulcans and the other races are tolerated or considered tools of the humans. It is the humans they don't care for nor trust as seen in the conversions at dinner on Enterprise in Star Trek VI. They see the Federation as a "Humans only club" that used racist (human-centric) terms for everything.
     
  7. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    What I don't get is why Worf, who's been raised from early childhood by Russian parents, doesn't speak with a Russian accent, just like say Chekov, who never got rid of his accent.

    Could it be that Worf was so ashamed of his Russian heritage that he took accent lessons to get rid of any traces of it. If so then why does he keep saying "Minsk, Misnk..." At the end of DS9? Change of heart?
     
  8. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Why does the Picard family speak british stage english even though they live in rural France? Because tv shows never even consider that minute level of detail.
     
  9. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And Worf is BIELOrussian, not Russian. :p Geordi didn't have an accent either, despite he was born in Africa and had a Francophone name (sadly, the forgot that point and called his father Edward instead of Édouard).

    I think it could have been interesting to see Worf being a huge fan of Slavig warrior stories or something like that.
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well sometimes they do but perhaps part of the time they change the character's background to suit the actor cast, other times they don't and hope the audiance won't notice or care.
     
  11. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that, nine times out of ten, the pasts of these characters was entirely irrelevant to the story. If they had wanted to focus on the characters and their journeys above the general potential for cool stories, then they probably would have cast actors who could match the proper accents for the character's backstory. But TNG (like most star trek) was always about the story first, not the characters, and the stories only very rarely even attempted to reach into any characters' past, so those details just weren't considered that important.
     
  12. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    But many episodes centered on Worf are directly linked to his past, like when his brother (that he didn't know was alive) comes on board to ask him to defend his father's honor.
    Or when he goes on a quest to free his father that he believes is being detained in a romulan labor camp.
     
  13. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Troi's cultural legacy from Earth was her love for chocolate and stories about cowboys. Her Betazoid part was about her power and....her mother. Riker's past (before Starfleet I mean) exploited was his daddy issues and the death of his mom, not Alaska. We saw Turkana IV because it was a real hell instead of an usual human colony and even there, we met Tasha's sister. Yes, family again.

    In TOS, the character whose background had been the more deeply explored was Spock and it was mainly about his vulcanity, not his humanity. It's the same thing for Worf.
     
  14. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Damn, I was forgetting a major point: Michael Dorn pratically created his character himself. Worf was so much a last minute idea that it was Dorn who chosed to play a serious guy. Considering he was a TOS fan, he was probably rather inspired by Kor and Kang than the young multitask bridge officer with a strong accent.

    TNG had to fight in it first years to show Star Trek could be more than Kirk and Spock...a Chekov II would have been a suicidal move.
     
  15. Shon T'Hara

    Shon T'Hara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Because the British won WWIII, obviously.
     
  16. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think a lot of those stories were envisioned as stories first (we should do something about klingon culture!) and only then attached to the character. Certainly they weren't worked out far enough in advance for them to be even remotely a factor in the casting process/early scripts, and once a character is established as talking a certain way, it would be considerably more distracting for them to suddenly shift to an eastern european accent just because we now know they grew up with russian parents. The stories came first, the characters mainly emerged from the stories rather than the other way around, and therefore there is a reasonable amount of stuff that was done in the beginning which just doesn't match up with the facts that came out later.

    Now it all makes sense! ;)
     
  17. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yep, a major Klingon episode, A Matter Of Honor, isn't even a Worf episode.

    Face of the Enemy was supposed to be a Beverly episode, but they finally take Troi to use the pretext of her empathic abilities. A bat'leth tournament by a shore leave on Risa, an archaelogical trip or an academic seminar.

    Complexifying Worf's background was a way to explore the complexity of Klingon society. When Worf has trouble with his honor, it's to explain the Klingon political culture and situation.
     
  18. the praetor

    the praetor Ensign Red Shirt

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    I believe the name of the episode is "The Chase".

    In that episode, I recall that a scientific mystery led representatives of four species (humans, klingons, romulans, and cardassians) to converge on some desolate planet.

    While the representatives were gathered together on the planet, they discovered and activated a hologram of an entity who claimed that she was of the species that seeded the four species that were present. In other words, she claimed that her species was the progenitor, or common ancestor, of humans, Klingons, romulans, and cardassians.

    After the Klingon representative was presented with this claim, he reacted with disgust and disbelief that Klingons could be related to those other dishonorable species. He believed in the purity of his own species. Presumably his view reflected that of his people, the klingons. This would be consistent with the way the Klingons had been portrayed. And I assume it was the point of that scene.

    The Klingons were not just suspicious of humans. They distrusted the cardassians and romulans as well, among others. It wasn't just suspicion, but there also seemed to be a racial animosity component to the Klingons reaction.

    That scene reinforced the image of the Klingons as xenophobic. By the way, the Klingon representative wasn't the only one who reacted with disgust and disbelief. Of course, the enlightened Picard reacted in the way that you would probably have expected.
     
  19. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What does any of that have to do with Worf?
     
  20. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Klingons distrusted Humans, Romulans and Cardassians. Gee, I wonder what that could be about? Maybe because those are all the Klingons biggest political/imperial rivals? No that couldn't have anything to do with it. They must be xenophobic, because a handful of xenophobes is proof positive that an entire race hates all aliens (and all other proof that they don't actually hate all alien races must be ignored!).