The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Shat Happens, Jul 7, 2014.

  1. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    In ST 6 The green-blooded goblin declared the Klingon Homeworld would be inhabitable in some years from then, and the President of the UFP made a speech about plans for complete evacuation of the planet.

    But in TNG's 24th century Kronos was perfectly alright so something good has happened there.

    My theory: they went the easy way and shot a Genesis torpedo in Kronos and left Klingon Adam and Klingon Eve there and were done with it.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Probably many different new and untried techniques were used to make Kronos habitable again. Kronos looks to have a pretty rough planetary ecology in TNG from what we've seen. The Kronos we see in TNG still may not have completely recovered from the Praxis explosion.
     
  3. drt

    drt Captain Captain

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    I thought the retconned idea is that they did move the Klingons, and that the new "home" world was further out than it was during Enterprise.
     
  4. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe most of the Klingons moved, and the main things left on the homeworld were the seat of government and certain other cultural touchstones that tradition sort of forbade being moved? I can't recall us ever seeing much of anything on the homeworld beyond council mess.
     
  5. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    It got better.
     
  6. Last Redshirt

    Last Redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I always reckoned they managed to get it back to habitable, but it was hardly a place you'd want to live. The atmosphere in the matte paintings in the establishing shots always seemed that it was filled with some kind of gas.

    Either that or Kronos was eternally cloudy.
     
  7. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

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    I would surmise that because the `science`in TUC was so ridiculous, in the 24th century we refused to acknowledge what had transpired. For instance, a moon exploding and the excelsior being damaged by the shockwave light years away.

    And because we closed our eyes and plugged our ears, Kronos is right as rain.
     
  8. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.
     
  9. Xerxes1979

    Xerxes1979 Captain Captain

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    All waves I know of in nature weaken over distance. The Excelsior, a vessel weighing many thousands of tons was flipped over in less than two seconds.

    Surely the force at the point of origin must have been astronomical. I don't see how any vessel in that solar system survived or the atmosphere for that matter.

    Using TNG canon one could argue the shockwave somehow resembled the soloton wave that magically got stronger and traveled in a two-dimensional plane.
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    It's called a subspace shockwave in the film.

    Since subspace is as mythical as dilithium, the shockwave can do what ever is needed.
     
  11. Xerxes1979

    Xerxes1979 Captain Captain

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    Can you explain why the Excelsior which was obstensibly on a scientific survey mission was not able to detect this subspace wave before impact? The wave was not immune to being analyzed after the collision.
     
  12. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Because the wave can do what ever is needed, including be undetectable until it was close enough to shake up the Excelsior. Apparently equipment used at cataloging gaseous planetary anomalies is crap at detecting subpace shockwaves. Even the ship's standard equipment didn't notice till it was right on them.

    Being in subspace probably means it travels very fast. Speed and distance are different in subspace.
     
  13. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    I think the initial reason why the Klingons signed the Khitomer Accords was to have a "time out" in order to fix Qo'noS. During that time, the Klingons diverted resources from its military to the reconstruction effort, so it was unable to engage in hostilities with the Federation for awhile.

    By at least the 2340s (which would be about 50 years or so after Star Trek VI depending on which chronology you subscribe to), the Klingons seemed to have succeeded in saving Qo'noS.

    I remember someone on these boards once doing a comparison of Qo'noS and showing that during the TNG era, it was always depicted as having dark skies but 200 years earlier in ENT, it had lighter skies. The idea proposed was that the darker version of Qo'noS in the 24th-Century reflected the lingering fallout from Praxis.
     
  14. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe unlike we've seen with the stupid humans and their home planet, the Klingons are actually concerned enough with the defense of their world to have SHIELDS? ;)
     
  15. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    An in-universe explanation I think that is implied is that Quonos was doomed if Federation assistance wasn't rendered, but the Kitomer Accords provided for that.


    The real question is why does the Federation keep saving the Klingons, only to have them forget a few years later, and become the UFP's enemies again. For example:

    Archer and crew saves the Klingons from the augment affliction, yet how do the Klingons thank Earth and Starfleet? A cold war that lasts pretty much until Star Trek 6.

    The UFP saves Quonos, as per the Kitomer Accords, and you would think THAT would make the Klingons eternally grateful. But no, they have cool relations all the way up to Narendra 3 incident, in which the Enterprise C is destroyed trying to save the outpost. In fact, in the alternate timeline, the Klingons end up declaring war on the UFP.

    In the prime timeline, Klingons throw a 20+ year alliance down the drain simply because the Feds refuse to support their dubious war against the Cardasians. In fact, they declare war on the Feds, as well, and the two powers fight a short but bitterly fought war.

    And if you count STO as quasi-canon, 20 some odd years after Nemesis, the Klingons go to war with the Feds yet again.

    Not to mention, the Klingon Empire is generally one ruled by terror and through conquering and exploiting other worlds. Every Klingon from Star Trek 3 on is portrayed as a bloodthirsty bully ready to pick a fight with anyone weaker than them.

    Maybe Kirk was right when he said "Let them die!"
     
  16. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    An answer would be that the Federation didn't render assistance to the Klingons and that the Khitomer Accords was really nothing more than a truce between the Federation and the Empire.

    I don't think an actual alliance between the Federation and Klingons came about until after the Narendra III incident, but both sides reserved the right to withdraw from the Accords.
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I never really understood what they were talking about in ST VI:TUC (I love that film, but I prefer not to think too much about the plotholes):

    RAND: Captain, I'm getting a message from Praxis. :wtf: :eek: :confused:
    SULU: Let's have it.
    KERLA (on viewscreen): This is Brigadier Kerla, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Praxis. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey treaty stipulations and remain outside the Neutral Zone. This transmission ends now.

    SPOCK: Good morning. Two months ago a Federation starship monitored an explosion on the Klingon moon Praxis. We believe it was caused by over-mining and insufficient safety precautions. The moon's decimation means a deadly pollution of their ozone. They will have depleted their supply of oxygen in approximately fifty Earth years.

    I suppose they mined only the dark side of a Qo'nos moon so the subspace shockwave wouldn't destroy the homeworld? But what's the deal, surely the Klingons have plenty of colonies and other inhabited / occupied worlds, especially according to "Day of the Dove":

    MARA: We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive.

    So the planets in the Klingon systems are poor (Praxis?) and the Klingons had already practised a colonization strategy strategy "to survive" but they forgot all of this by the time of ST VI:TUC?

    Bob
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What exactly have they forgotten? Just because they have a moon nearby with some mineral wealth doesn't mean it's enough to support them. Plus, it wouldn't be an easy feat to move billions of inhabitants.
     
  19. Last Redshirt

    Last Redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Robert, why would the Klingons ditch their homeworld? I get that it would be polluted and they would need to divert resources from the rest of the Empire to help them, but, I can't see them just leaving their homeworld to the wolves when they can, theoretically, fix it to at least habitable.

    The Klingon Empire surely has hundreds of systems either fully colonized by Klingons or under occupation by the Klingons, though.
     
  20. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

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    Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

    Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014