The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Captaindemotion, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're correct I'm thinking of "Mrs. Columbo" then.
     
  2. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Another way that they might make Catwoman more Nolan-esque is to make her something more like Mandy, the naked assassin from 24. Selina would remain a cat burglar but rather than stealing statues of cats or cats-eye emeralds, she steals military or industrial secrets and sells them on to the highest bidder - often terrorists. She could be in Gotham to steal technology from Wayne industries.

    This might make her a bit more of a fitting follow-up to Ras and the League, with their plan to destroy Gotham or the Joker, with his nihilistic destruction.
     
  3. JacksonArcher

    JacksonArcher Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Naked assassin? I need to start watching 24.
     
  4. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

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    Well naked for 24 standards. We're not even talking NYPD Blue nudity here.
     
  5. Jetfire

    Jetfire Guest

    24 should have been on HBO. :(
     
  6. Bad Bishop

    Bad Bishop Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :techman:

    Why are Blake Lively and Natalie Portman mentioned in the article? Because they really are in contention for key roles, or because the writer has bad intel from dubious sources? I suspect the latter. I doubt that Nolan would be interested in very busy actresses from other superhero film franchises.
     
  7. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    Nat's been rumored for everything since 1999. It's nothing new.
     
  8. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Yeah but in this case she's been rumored in far more things than she normally has and it is connected to her performance in "Black Swan" which has people talking Oscar for her, I don't think she's been in this high demand for projects for years. I think over the last two months she's been rumored in at least a half a dozen different projects from Alfronso Curaon's "Gravity" now to "Dark Knight Rises" and no doubt more that we've not heard of yet.
     
  9. Lapis Exilis

    Lapis Exilis Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly, I disagree with this - while Rachel was pretty much reduced to sacrifical victim in Dark Knight, in BBegins she did have much more of a purpose than just a woman to fuck/save. Acting as Bruce's conscience made her one of the strongest female characters in Batman history, and certainly one of the best love interests that the character has ever had.

    Nolan has radically reimagined several characters I wouldn't have considered worth a decent story, so I'm pretty sure he could do the same with Catwoman. There have been times when she's been quite a good villain and she mostly gets weakened when they try to make her "bad but really good", or focus too much on the romance angle.

    Always possible they'll invent a new character for the film. I'd like to see that, actually.

    I'll never get the interest in Bane. He's never seemed much of a character to me. Azrael - there's a lot of backstory there, not sure how they'd work that into a movie.

    The main reason I don't care for Ra's and Talia as villains is their plans always seem remarkably dumb - the very epitome of overly convoluted, cliche comic book villain crap complete with pompous, posturing monologues.

    Pretty much. Traditionally Talia has existed entirely for men. She generally has no motivation or thought process of her own and runs around either doing dirty deeds for her father, even when it supposedly tortures her own conscience, or runs around trying to seduce or entrap Bruce into a relationship. Early on, even though she was her father's right hand, he worked to likewise trap Bruce into a relatinship with her so that he could have a male heir because a daughter simply wouldn't work! Why she at that point didn't tell Ra's to go screw remains a mystery.

    For a brief period they crossed her over into Superman and she took over LexCorp and she got interesting for about half a minute - then they went for this Batman and Son business, retconned back into continuity one of the worst stories in Batman's history (the one in which Damian is conceived) and she's right back to being an obsessive cliche with the emotional maturity of a jilted adolescent who can't conceive of life without her beloved to the point that she'll go psychotic to get him.

    Which is not to say I couldn't see her being reimagined much the way Ra's was for the Nolan-verse. Make her a competent villain out for revenge for her father (who I am firmly convinced is not dead in the Nolan-verse - we never saw a body...), a skilled assassin with all the ninja skills and even more devious than either Ra's or Bruce and she could be very interesting.
     
  10. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would argue again that Talia is the way she is through conditioning and breeding along with training. Talia is meant to be nothing more than a desirable object for men since Ra's means for her to mate with a suitable candidate to be his heir. He would have much preferred a son but got Talia instead and has treated her as such. I don't get what is so hard to contemplate about her. Her entire purpose is to serve the means of her father and that is what generates the conflict between her. She is incapable of having a destiny or life of her own. Every time she has attempted to do so she's been either manipulated by Ra's or forces belonging to Ra or has come back on her own whim. This is the tragedy of Talia al Ghul.
     
  11. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Katie Holmes played the now-dead Rachel in the first movie. How would you explain her as Selina?
     
  12. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^He's obviously joking.
     
  13. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which brings me back to 'Liam Neeson made it work'.

    A monologue about how corrupt the world is and you've got to fix it, well, it's far too easy to go into righteous fanaticism territory. Liam Neeson makes his grandiose aims and terrorist plans seem calm and sensible, or at least is able to present himself as such. He's almost unassuming about it: This violence is how you fix things, I'm going ahead with it, probably not a good idea to get in my way, waiter get me the check. I think with the wrong casting Ra's al Ghul could have been a pretty weak villain in that movie.

    I dunno. Skimming Wikipedia there's something vageuly silly about the guy. The sinister foreigner who is sinister and ancient and has an evil plan.
     
  14. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Granted to someone who is not familiar with Ra's and his history and connection with Bruce would make that connection, that he is a weak villain with a silly concept, but the fact of the matter is that Ra's is a global threat because of his global aims. He's targeted Gotham because it is Bruce Wayne's hometown and understands the symbolic importance it has to Bruce. The League of Shadows has operations all over the world. I think Liam Neeson made him work because Liam understood the character's motivations and desires. It might not seem on the outset that Ra's is Bruce's greatest enemy because of the long drawn out conflict between Bruce and Joker but Ra's is a more personal threat, even moreso now since they're family.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Ra's was created to be a homage to James Bond villains when he was created by Denny O'Neill back in the 70s. O'Neill even said that Sean Connery would be the best voice for him.
     
  16. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I wonder if that is why Timm and Dini ended up casting David Warner?
     
  17. The Badger

    The Badger Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Apparently the stuff Bruce Wayne sprays on the bat suit in BB was to help mask his thermal image. From Wikipedia 'The armor was then coated with a black latex material for camouflage and to dampen Bruce's heat signature, making him difficult to detect with night-vision equipment.' Not canon, I know.

    Well, when I saw the film I assumed he'd used flesh coloured make up to disguise himself as a police man, much like Jack Nicholson in the Tim Burton film. I take your point on the interrogation scene though.
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Joker's paint was just war paint, similar to how Jack attempts to disguise himself to the leaders of the mob in "Batman". He is also shown without it at the bank robbery when he reveals himself to the bank manager. Theatrics, consider the paint be the Joker's "mask".
     
  19. Myasishchev

    Myasishchev Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Couldn't Ra's just go, like, have some more sex? Or do Lazarus Pits mess up the twin gentlemen?

    In any event, it's not really the in-universe character's problem. Talia's reasons for being weak are not of great concern to me, living as I do on an Earth-Prime not threatened by an antimatter wave. But that writers have continually conceived her as weak, however, is a bother.

    Also, I don't get the breeding part. It's not like Talia is the end result of a carefully orchestrated eugenic program. She came about like the rest of us.

    Yeah, I generally agree, although it didn't t make a lot of sense. I mean, Osama bin Laden is/was pretty good recruiter, organizer and leader of men, but I wouldn't put him in charge of General Electric. Aside from the obvious reasons, I'm not really sure the skill set that permits one to run a global criminal-terrorist conspiracy is exactly the same skill set required to be a legitimate CEO.

    Plus, it's pretty clear she's never even heard the phrase "fiduciary duty."

    Anyway, Talia's LexCorp gig was sort of weird, from a continuity standpoint. Like, this was pretty much right before Infinite Crisis, right, and the creation of Alex Luthor's Secret Society of Supervillains, and Alex Luthor is pretending to be Lex, even to his closest non-Kryptonian associates, and Talia just royally screwed over the real Lex and sold as many LexCorp assets as she could to Bruce Wayne.*

    So my question is, how does Alex plausibly say, "Hey, Ms. Ghul, you did a great job with my company, you wanna help me run my supervillain army?" When she should be telling this guy, "I just helped Superman and Batman ruin your life. Also, you're a lazily-written madman and a junkie. I'm pretty sure you're going to murder me as soon as my back is turned." I mean, does he come back with a "Pish-tosh! Water under the bridge, old top!" and everything's just cool?

    Maybe I missed a middle part.

    *I'm sort of wondering about the legal aspects of that. If I recall, those sales would probably be void, since Wayne or the responsible decisionmaker there would have cause to know that the sales, if done substantially under market, were not authorized by her principal. I think the agency principle is that if one knows or should know that an agent is actively working against the principal, any obligations the agent attempts to create on behalf of her principal are not binding. But I'd have to go look that up and bleahhh.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2010
  20. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The LexCorp gig was one of Talia's periods where she defied Ra's, it also ended up being part of Bruce and Clark's plan to take down Lex.
     

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