Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Agent Richard07, Jul 8, 2008.
^Wayne tower was really lousily built already
A fine review, JA. But I must quibble.
How did you get crestfallen from Gyllenhaal in this scene? Rachel seems nothing but relieved to realize Batman has saved Harvey rather than her. She's just spent the last few minutes telling him she didn't want to be the one who was saved. Granted there is an undercurrent of, Oh, shit, I'm about to die - but it seemed to me there's a really fine bit of subtext here in which Racehl has her faith in Bruce restored in the last seconds of her life. She expected him to do the selfish thing (and of course, he tried to) and save her due to his own personal feelings, rather than save Harvey, for the good of Gotham. Not knowing that he didn't mean to save Harvey, she gets to die believing he's better than she thought he was. It's another example of the complex of twsited emotions the Nolans bring off in this film.
There's that too. It's more plausible than simply buying a new building just for the hell of it. I didn't think of it when I made my post and forgot that someone mentioned it a day or so ago.
There is a subtle moment when Rachel hears Harvey screaming. She knows that she is about to die, and I think it is in that moment that perhaps sub-consciously she realizes that Batman went after Dent, in my mind, over her. I think in her final moments there was some type of human emotion of feeling like someone you know very well just choose someone else to save.
Imagine yourself in the situation: people you know are in separate warehouses wired to explode. You choose to save the person you know the best, but it ends up being someone else. The person that you know, they undoubtedly feel just a tad letdown that they choose someone else (or at least that's what they think). I think it was a very subtle reaction and easily missed, but I do really think that for that little moment Rachel was perhaps just a bit saddened that Bruce/Batman did not come for her, and I think that adds to the tragic nature of that scene.
^ Do we know that she knew that it was Batman that saved Harvey? i don't remember everything about the scene.
It was difficult to pinpoint what exactly Rachel knew, but I suspect she realized once Batman found out that he would try and save either or both.
She wouldn't know because all that was said, was lots of "Why?!?", "No!!", and something along the lines of "Why me?!?". There was no names mentioned.
At the beginning of the movie there were a number of Batman imitators. They made their own costumes and had their own equipment and weapons. Is Bruce really different than these guys? I was thinking probably not. Aside from taking the time to train himself, he's just richer and can afford better equipment.
Of course she didn't know that Batman found out did she?
Thus Batman's line of "I'm not wearing hockey pads". I thought the copycat sub-plot was going to be featured more, but I think it worked within the confines of the plot.
Well, he's not running around with guns trying to kill people. In fact, he's trying to avoid killing folks.
Nicholson's Joker was "Hey, look at ME! I'm ACTING!"
Like just about everything the guy's done in 25-30 years.
Joe, not a fan
Which is why I thought it might have been more appropriate for Batman to say something along the lines of "Because I don't need guns" or somesuch rather than the "hockey pads" comment.
Except what he was expressing to the imitators was about their protection, which was his main concern.
This was one of the few superhero movies where I didn't feel like rolling my eyes at a single line. If he'd said, "Because I don't need guns" at that part, they'd have rolled out of my head.
One of the things I didn't like about the movie was how Harvey Dent's fall from grace was treated by Batman & Gordon as such a catastrophe in terms of their fight against organized crime. Like, if any of the public ever saw the slightest tarnish on Dent's reputation, it would throw the masses into such despair that they would never recover. I didn't like that they seem to hold so little regard for the people of Gotham that they need to be lied to just so that they'll go along with the right thing.
For that matter, I wouldn't think it was Dent's incorruptible reputation that made him so unique but rather his fearlessness. Like Gordon said in Batman Begins, what they really needed was a D.A. brave enough to prosecute without fear of mob reprisals. In that respect, it doesn't really matter how Dent died. The fact that he died at all is what might terrorize the people into submission to the mob again.
Well, that's kind of true about politicians and public servants. One little speck of imperfection and one's career is completely ruined. Batman & Gordon were determined to make sure Dent's image was not tarnished in the view of Gotham, even if that meant sacrificing...which was the whole point of Batman's ultimate sacrifice at the end. He was the hero that Gotham needed him to be at that moment, the hero that Dent could never be but the hero that Gotham should remember. If the public knew of what Dent did, it would tarnish the spirits of Gotham more than anything.
Actually, I believe it was Batman who said that to Gordon on his first night out. Dent's death was tragic, but often public figures are remembered more after their death. It's sort of the same situation in Insomnia. Ellie was going to safeguard Dormer's reputation but he didn't want his reputation restored. He could have died a hero cop but he didn't want Ellie to lose her way, so he would sacrifice his reputation in order to do the right thing.
Batman & Gordon were in some respects sacrificing themselves so that Dent's reputation could be remembered as a hero rather than as a villain, which ties into Dent's line exactly -- "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". Batman & Gordon didn't want Gotham to see Dent as the villain. They wanted Gotham to see him as the hero.
It was more that if his reputation was tranished it'd give the mob guy's defense a lot of leverage to call his credibility into question on arresting and prosecuting the mob guys possibly ruining all of their efforts.
Dent's reputation is already tarnished. There are people out there who have seen his bad side (no pun intended). What if word gets around?
Who, though? One of Joker's demented goons? That's pretty much it. Anyone who Dent came across as Two-Face was pretty much killed on-site, besides perhaps Ramirez, who was corrupt and is likely going to prison anyway.
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