Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by YJAGG, Jun 10, 2013.
I've seen "Nemesis" exactly once ten years ago on DVD.
You have a point, but since Berman doesn't seem to ever set foot on set except for PR purposes, it only extends so far.
Also, on GEN, he wasn't really in the day-to-day loop; they had Bernie Williams riding herd on Carson (badly),
I do like every Star Trek movie so I never bought into the curse of the even numbered movie baloney. Nemesis is the weakest of the bunch but I still do watch it from time to time.
None of what you've just mentioned there bothers me, in fact I'd never really thought about them before, I know I'm in a minority but I thoroughly enjoyed the film and continue to do so, watch it at least once a year. Is it perfect? Not a chance. Are elements of it lifted from TWOK? Absolutely. Controversial one here: Should Data have died? Yes. Could the ending of the film been and his death been a little less depressing? I think so, I give the film 8/10
Both Nemesis and Into Darkness have obliterated any notion of an odd/even curse.
^ For you StarMan
As I rewatch the older films through the years, my tastes have changed. TWOK, TVH, TUC, and FCON used to be my favorites. Now I find myself enjoying TFF and INS as much as the others.
Age is a funny thing. Ok, not funny. But weird.
I think this curse is a decent indicator of what I think of the films, but it doesn't always apply. For example, I love The Search for Spock, but I'm not so big a fan of Nemesis. I thought Generations was a decent, if flawed movie. I also think the "curse" is eradicated with the previous two movies being rather good.
A bit off-topic... those photos of the Enterprise and the Vengeance close together only heighten their similarities...
I don't know. Outside of being the same basic shape, they seem different in proportion and details.
Actually, this kinda highlights the problem I had with not being able to be engaged by the film. The death of Data should have been emotional for me, but it fell totally flat. I felt absolutely nothing about it or any other element of the film.
Dunno about that, it made me tear up
Yeah, agree completely. For me, the biggest failings of NEM and GEN aren't the obvious plotting & credibility issues with their storylines, but the fact that we have the deaths of Kirk and Data and both demises carry absolutely zero emotional import.
Kirk's death (both versions, but especially the release version) just seem like outtakes or rehearsals, with no credibility at all.
Data's just seems like they figured Goldsmith would find a way to elevate the most pedestrian staging/shooting to godhood the way he did most limp bits in Trek films. Christ, they could have stolen a page from the end of ARMAGEDDON and put in subliminal cuts of Data's life-experiences while the phaser fired, just ANYthing to connect the audience with this character in farewell. But Baird's idea of directing is just piling up tons of film to mess with it in post; he doesn't seem to have any idea of how to stage for film or what you need to do to when letting a scene play uncut for a time. He has no business behind the camera based on the three utterly lousy films he made, which besides Goldsmith scores have almost nothing to offer.
I don't blame Carson on GEN; I think he got what he could but that Shatner probably couldn't invest in the scene the way he needed to. Perhaps Meyer could have gotten a good death out of Kirk with 70 takes, running Shatner till he was exhausted enough to actually LOOK like he was dying, but given that they weren't going to go gory enough to really make him look like he fell a great distance AND had a bridge land on him, it was probably going to be an uphill battle to sell it anyway.
TMP - 4/Yes
WOK - 4/Yes
SOS - 2/Yes
TVH - 2/Yes
TFF - 2/Maybe
TUC - 3/Yes
GEN - 2/No
FC - 2/No
INS - 1/No
NEM - 2/No
'09 - 4/F*CK NO
INT - 1/F*CK NO
Data's death was driven home adequately in the memorial service. It was cheapened by the B4 reset option.
Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.
But why would Picard mourn him? He didn't know Kirk any better than a random redshirt (Kirk is my favorite character). What confused me was that they didn't seem to give a shit that the Enterprise was destroyed.
Even if he hadn't recognized Kirk (which he did, by the way), I would have expected Picard to at least mention to his crew that he had help (he doesn't) from another Starfleet Captain. Add Kirk's legacy back in, and it's criminal.
^ Absolutely. We might justify that he did mention Kirk to them off-screen (of course), but the way it plays in the movie its like he just buries Kirk and then forgets all about him. For the audience that's an unsatisfying end to one of Star Trek's legacy characters (in fact, Kirk's false 'death' aboard the Enterprise-B at the start of the movie has got more emotional resonance than his actual death!).
He had just lost his entire family in a house fire. Next to that, a legendary starship captain and a spaceship are nothing.
Shouldn't having just lost his entire family made Picard MORE sensitive to those around him making the ultimate sacrifice?
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