The characters and universe post-TOS

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by King Daniel Beyond, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    He did seem to be aging in stages, just like the planet. It's too bad that one of the stages coincided with his pon farr...

    The novels maintain a continuity of sorts on Saavik's backstory, making her the adoptive rather than biological "daughter" of Spock. Whether Vulcans would feel shame for banging adopted family members is completely unknown; it's hardly a constant for humans, either.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Well, in The Menagerie, Part I, Spock reveals how long he served with Pike--which was far longer than 5 years. Whether his stated number was simply adding up a number of five-year missions, or missions were extended in Pike's active years is unknown, but Spock's line could suggest Starfleet vessels did not all follow the 5-year period of service.
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But how much of that time was aboard the same ship? As Pike commanded different ships, Spock went with him from assignment to assignment.

    :)
     
  4. AggieJohn

    AggieJohn Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Very true. One also has to consider, and I think this was already pointed out, that in Amok Time Spock had hoped to avoid the Pon Farr all together due to his human side. It did delay it till he was in his 30's. The whole scene is creepy and kills the momentum of the story, like the dark cave in Empire Strikes Back, but instead of fighting himself, a student has sex with a mentor who is himself a teenage boy. Its so bad that Saavik is never seen again in movies short of a tiny bit in STIV. Its like hey Saavik want a ride back to earth, oooohhh noooo I will take the next BoP, good luck at your court marshal. I could be their as a character witness regarding your brave actions on Genesis planet but, nooooo :wtf:.
     
  5. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    On screen, all we know is that Pike only commanded the Enterprise, and Spock served with him, so this suggests the ship had an extended mission beyond the more familiar 5 years of Kirk's era.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Only problem is Leila Kolami. Evidently, some assignment put Spock in a position to have a relationship with her and there's no mention of it taking place aboard the Enterprise, she says she knew him on Earth.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    To be a bit anal-retentive, onscreen facts don't include Pike "only" commanding that ship - merely him commanding that ship.

    He did command the Enterprise just before Kirk did, so there'd be fairly little time for him to have another ship before he goes teaching cadets and gets crippled; and he did seem a bit wet behind the ears in "The Cage" where he already had the Enterprise. But there's still plenty of time for him to do other things with Spock (things possibly involving Spock's established historical colleagues Leila Kalomi and Gary Mitchell), and onscreen indication that he did do other things besides commanding starships (namely, participating in those cadet cruises).

    Since Pike's dramatic role in "The Menagerie" is to be another Kirk, a scary example of what could have happened to our main hero, we could well speculate that he also started very young, his possible first command was similarly insignificant, and that he then stayed for years or decades with a legendary ship, being ultimately promoted out of that command and into a junior Admiral post because he was a public hero figure. But Pike's story could have been different, too.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Didn't one or more of the novels have Spock and Saavik wedding at some point? This possibly being the wedding that Picard spoke of in the show.

    I might be remembering a fan fiction.

    :)
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The Sherman/Shwartz books have this storyline; the wedding comes in the first chapter of Vulcan's Heart. Saavik subsequently becomes a sort of a Diane Duane heroine for operations inside the Romulan Star Empire. I don't know if she appears much in the novels beyond this - save for "flashback" style stories dealing with the movie era, I mean. Chronologically, her story seems to conclude in the 2370s in the Vulcan's Soul books where she still deals with the Romulans.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    according to memory beta - she is last seen in 2279 where she is still a Starship captain - I wonder after Spock disappears in 2384 (it is 2384 right?) they will magic up a Son or something in the pocket books.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    2387. :techman:
     
  12. Bubbles McGee

    Bubbles McGee Lieutenant Commander

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    Although I enjoyed the TOS movies for the most part, none of them ever really "felt" like TOS Trek. The most obvious and recurring plot-hole (as suggested by the OP) is of course the fact that the original crew always found some way to be reunited on the Enterprise. This is simply not feasible. People's careers do not work that way. Compounding this is the fact that Starfleet is supposed to be a meritocracy which implies that the key members of the greatest crew should all have had much higher ranking positions and/or ships of their own by TWOK.

    For me, TOS ended with the last televised episode. Everything that came after it (TAS, the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT) were attempts at manufacturing something that was magical precisely because that magic was the product of spontaneous chemistry and circumstance.
     
  13. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    "Only" means it was the only ship mentioned, so that's all we have to go on.


    Really? I've viewed pilot Pike as weathered, hence his longing to leave the service (more than just what happened on Rigel).
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I know - sorry about deliberately interpreting it the other way. I wanted to emphasize that Pike is not one of those special cases known to have only commanded one starship in his career, or started out big, or something. Unlike, say, Picard, who made it explicit that the sizable Stargazer was his first starship command.

    As for fresh vs. seasoned, I saw Pike's fatigue as something he'd be encountering for the very first time, but would soon overcome, achieving Kirk-like greatness despite mounting Redshirt casualties. Speeding back home after losing a few men in a landing party incident is perhaps valid behavior for a CO, but when contrasted with Kirk's habits it looks timid and insecure.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Two things from TMP work against this, however.

    First, when Scotty is speaking to Kirk in the travel pod, he refers to Decker as an "untried captain," which certainly wouldn't be true if Decker had been out there commanding the Enterprise for a number of years.

    Second, when Kirk is explaining to Decker why he is taking command, he cites his experience of "five years out there dealing with unknowns like this." If Decker had also been out there for several years, Kirk's experience wouldn't be a factor.
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We know that Pike was in command of the Enterprise thirteen years prior to the events of The Menagerie and Spock served with him for eleven years, four months. At some point he became a fleet captain, and Kirk took over the Enterprise directly from him. Kirk met Pike when he became fleet captain, but that could have been some other time (separate from) Kirk assuming command of the Enteprise. Arriving and departing captains don't alway meet.

    While Pike was in command of the Enterprise at two known points, the in-between time is open for interpretation.

    The weariness and pressure that Pike was feeling might have indicated that being in command was new to him. And his thoughts of leaving the service could have predated his command of the Enterprise too, he did seemed generally homesick.

    Both of your points are good ones, and I agree. However, I still have a problem with Starfleet letting the Enterprise just sit in orbit for a protracted time period, perhaps years, before beginning the refit/rebuild process.

    If not Decker taking her out again, then another unknown captain. There's no official onscreen (canon) listing of the Enterprise's captains. And while Kirk did recommend Decker for command, there no indication that Decker is Kirk's direct successor.

    :)
     
  17. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do we know, though, that there was a "protracted time period"? I know many fans have tried various possible timelines. But from TMP, I believe the only references to the passage of time we have are Kirk's statement that he's spent "two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations" and Scotty's statement that they've "just spent 18 months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise." So that only leaves one year of definite time that the Enterprise was not undergoing refit and also not under Kirk's command.

    The producers of TMP went to a lot of trouble, too, to try and pretend that the crew hadn't aged much. It seems likely to me that they intended TMP to be 2.5 years after the conclusion of Kirk's five year mission, and for Decker to have taken command and begun the preparations for refit immediately after that mission.
     

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