The Borg: Wondering....

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by A'Tun-Te, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Each to their own, I guess.

    How are the Borg "a heap of failures" though? They destroyed almost half of Starfleet, hundreds of planets, killed 64 billion people... it was only a miracle that saved Earth.
     
  2. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    The Borg should have been 100 times the threat they posed during the entire series.
    From "thousands of planets" they assimilated, at least ten would've been evolved beyond our imagination, giving the Borg knowledge and technologies beyond our ability to divert.
    1 standard Cube (not even a tactical) took the near entire fleet down at Wolf 359, granted it was Jean-Luc Picard/Locutus on the Bridge with tactical insights, but even then: more than 10K lives gone, 39 STARSHIPS... eradicated in mere minutes...
    Imagine what a fleet of standard cubes could do.

    Someone, long time ago, made a digital replication of the cube's assault, spinning around at high velocity, becoming an all-sides-covering laser beam.
    Considering the wreckage Enterprise NCC-1701-D flew through, this could be amazingly accurate.
    Especially, since a few ships seemed to be cut in parts, rather than exploded.
    Then again, the Borg have a 'surgical cutting beam', used especially for taking ships apart, they could have used this beam as assault weapon on Picard's command.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    But the Destiny books take place almost 20 years after "Best of Both Worlds" - the Federation has upgraded it's defences significantly as a result of prior Borg attacks including technology from the future which Captain Janeway brought back at the end of Voyager which was designed to fight the Borg.

    And besides, the combined Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Gorn/Tholian/Ferengi/Cardassian fleet was utterly annihilated at the Battle of the Azure Nebula in no time at all. The Borg weren't even slowed.
     
  4. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    My point precisely.
    Whatever they scavenged, could not ever be enough to slow them down, let not mention stop them.
    If the Borg were truly interested in us, a swarm of thousands of Cubes would visit earth, no?
    Heck, if not millions.

    Since the introduction of the Borg, there could have been only one ending...
    And not a good one for us.

    But then they decided to tone the Borg down, by like 300% (reminds me of Diablo 2, the Barbarian, who was toned down by 300% in the first patch :P)
    It's funny why we simply cannot lose, ever, in movies... XD
     
  5. Takeru

    Takeru Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, there's the theory that the Borg lost on purpose during TNG, slap the federation around a little bit, incite them to develop new technologies, come back a few years later, look what they managed to do, rinse and repeat, then send 10.000 cubes and finish the job. That could be the borg way of doing R&D, why assimilate a civilization early? Just poke them a little bit at the start so the eventual assimilation brings even more more technology and ideas into the collective.
     
  6. Merlanthe

    Merlanthe Commander Red Shirt

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    I was watching ST:Motion Picture for the first time and when they started saying that V'ger encountered a world of living machines who altered it so that it could complete its programmed mission my first thought was 'cool V'ger encountered the Borg homeworld before the Borg became assimilation junkies!'

    Then Ilyia (sp?) got assimilated and her conciousness became a part V'ger :eek:


    I always liked that last idea about her being a seperate being that lives within the collective like a parasite. I once had a theory on the Borg Queens origins. Basically the TNG two parter Descent showed that the crews plan to infect the Borg with individuality via Huw worked, but when the collective sensed what was happening they disconnected Huw's cube before the infection could spread.

    My theory was what if, before they were disconnected a female drone was able to transmitt her conciousness to another cube, or maybe a female drone on another cube had already been infected. But rather than infect other drones with her individuality she instead used her individuality as a way to dominate and take control of the collective thereby becoming an individual conciousness cotrolling the Borg but also remaining seperate from the hive mind. This would explain her fetish for inhabiting female drones that share a similar physical appearance because they look like she once did prior to being assimilated, why when one queen dies another pops up due to her consiousness body hopping.

    More importantly it would account for the Borg villain decay as they were unable to function at optimum efficiency because of the Queen controlling them. In Voyager when the Borg Queen encounters problems that could easily be solved by merging minds she never does also she always seems to give verbal commands to the surrounding drones to get them to do stuff rather than the drones instantly and silently reacting to her thoughts and desires as they would do if she was part of the hive mind. This is because as an individual she is reluctant, even fearful, of merging with the collective hive mind because it might mean the loss of her individuality and/or control over the collective.

    It has pointed out to me previously in First Contact the Borg Queen claims to have been present during Best of Both Worlds which took place before Descent. But we never see her in Best of Both Worlds we just have her claim to have been there. Its entirely possible that she was just a fellow drone in the same adjunct as the assimilated Picard and given his tendancy to reppress his memories of being a drone its entirely possible that his memories of her being the Queen rather than just a fellow drone are false memories triggered by her own insistence that she has always been Queen. After all he doesnt remember her at all until she 'reminds' him.

    Of course thats all just a theory i had.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    On the reverse side Voyager can routinely engage the Borg and come out unscathed... without even mentioning the proverbial god mode they turned on in Endgame. This happens a lot... establish a powerful, threatening bad guy... then water them down to the point where the good guys can beat them and they become a parody.
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    But Voyager never really beat the Borg. They merely escaped and blew up a ship or two. They never really did any real damage to the Borg until Unimatrix Zero and Endgame.
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Ah, but the Ilia probe was unfamiliar with Carbon units - the same carbon units that have always formed the basis of a Borg drone. If V'Ger was from the Borg, why would it be so unfamiliar with a core part of Borg physiology?

    Besides, do you really see the Borg finding an ancient space probe with laughable technology and then they decide to be nice and help it out?

    My ebook version of the Best of Both Worlds actually has the Queen in it. Check the link in my signature!
     
  10. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Man I really, really wish Voyager had done a Borg origin story.

    I imagine the Borg started as sort of Communism taken to an extreme. The original Borg probably formed a Collective for reasons similar to the formation of the Federation. To acquire knowledge, to set aside our differences. Then, like Futurama's Santa, it became something nobody intended it to be, and it calculated the best course of action was to absorb everything else in the universe.

    I don't think the Queen ruined the Borg, at least not in First Contact. I think the ruination of the Borg is...well, Dark Frontier. It's the first episode that really weakened the Borg just to make it possible for them to stay part of the show.
     
  11. Merlanthe

    Merlanthe Commander Red Shirt

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    Thats why i said the Borg homeworld before they became assimilation junkies. How do you know that the Borg have always used carbon units for their drones? The way they were presented in Q who its entirely possible they started out as sentient machines and only later converted organic lifeforms into drones when they began exploring space and encountering organic lifeforms. V'ger could have come accross the Borg homeworld before they had encountered any sentient organic lifeforms.

    Besides that wasnt a serious theory just a funny coincidence that i noticed whilst watching the movie (though it probably is my own head fanon now :P )
     
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Didn't the Borg Queen once say that they were once, organic and weak? It seems that the Borg did indeed start out as the carbon units that V'Ger was so confused by. And anyway, even if your idea is correct, why would a race of fully mechanical aliens want to become half organic when they find out that organic life is so widespread? To fit in better?
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I dunno, organic components have some advantages over mechanical components. Mechanical components have the computational speed, ease of programming and maintainability but organic neural networks have the advantage in terms of abstract reasoning and absorption of novel concepts. I can see a fully mechanical race wanting to take advantage of that.

    But I always got the impression the Borg started out as an organic species. Although advantage us organics have, we can spring ourselves out of basic amino acids and lipids and all it takes is a few billion years.
     
  14. at Quark's

    at Quark's Captain Captain

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    I don't know that. The more advanced a species would be, the more the Borg would gain from them, but also the more improbable it would be the Borg could defeat them in the first place (that is, assuming that the species in question doesn't want to be assimilated). For instance, I don't think the Borg are capable of assimilating the Voth civiliziation or cizilizations advanced even more than that. So I would postulate that there is a kind of upper bound on the technological capabilities of civilizations that they can assimilate, and that the gap between that upper bound and the federation's capabilities is apparently not unbridgeable (even if our heroes succeed only with unorthodox approaches and lots of risktaking).
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You should read the Destiny novels. They detail the origins of the Collective and it's really more tragic than anything else.

    It also sort of explained the concept of the Queen, and why she won't stay dead, convincingly enough.

    But yeah, what ruined the Borg in the series is overexposure really. They show up once, they're scary powerful, threatening and the good guys were lucky to stay alive. They show up ten times, the good guys beating them off becomes just routine.
     
  16. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Good question.
    Once some fella asked me: who'd win: Sith or Borg...
    Answer is obvious: the Borg adapts.
    The ONLY species that ever harmed (truly harmed) were the Fluidic Space critters: Species 8472.
    It was also the ONLY species that resisted the nano-invasion when the Borg tried to assimilate them.
    Even a superior species would fall under the Borg, simply because: "So, 2500 Cubes failed? No problem, send in 2.500.000 others..."
    Like ants they'd simply swarm the race, if the cost was lower than the gain.
    And: there's the adaptivity.
    Even multi-fase weaponry had only 3 to 5 shots before the Borg adapted.

    Further on: I forgot in which episode, but a Borg said there are thousands of Borg Hubs.
    If one thinks how massive a hub was... not a chance a race could overcome the Borg.

    Unless they hacked the Collective.
    But both Humans and non-humans tried this before, with fairly poor result.

    As for the Queen: for some reason I see her 'slave' to a superbeing/-computer -if the theory that they evolved from a race that build a computer which stood up against his masters is in effect, and which I personally prefer, as said earlier, especially since this theory predates the IMHO silly books by FAR- which is the actual dominant factor in the Collective.
    Maybe a computer as big as a solar system (linked up through WiFi, lol), covering all it's planets, mainly for data storage and security systems (firewalls to make a silly example).
    Imagine this computer has bio-brain cells...
    We as humans today try to make these, so it is logical the Borg already has this 'technology'.

    And: for Borg being carbon based, is not correct.
    Their armor is, but inside is living tissue.
    A humanoid...
    But they do not want to become more fleshy, nor more technological, rather both in a perfect marriage.
    Technology has advantages over tissue, in some ways.
    Tissue has other advantages over tech.
    Combining them into the perfect being, is the only solution.
    Or, to put it in terms of an episode: Best of Both Worlds.
     
  17. at Quark's

    at Quark's Captain Captain

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    I agree that superior numbers can overcome superior technology. But only to a degree. It also depends upon how superior that species is, 2.500.000 cubes won't do you any good if the other species has the power to simply think them, or the entire borg collective for that matter out of existence (like the douwd did with another race) -- or do it by pushing a simple button, whatever.

    Which brings up an interesting question in itself. How would the Douwd or the Q view the Borg ? And conversely, how would the Borg view them ?
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The 24th century Federation would appear to be right on the edge of what the Borg are incapable of assimilating.
     
  19. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Probably as very annoying.
    But nothing more than mere being a heap of mosquitoes, I guess?
    On the other hand: Q being omnipotent, is he nano-probe resistant?
    And if not: what would a Q-Borg be like?
    A godly calculator? XD
     
  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Captain Captain

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    Omnipotent yet without individuality, I suppose :)

    The Borg, however, would have run out of goals. Having reached perfection and presumably assimilating the entire universe in an instant, what are they going to do now?