The Borg, a defence

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by john titor, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    So, you were not joking. Unbelievable.

    The borg is sentient - a giant consciousness. That means that the collective understands its actions and their consequences, that it has a free will. That means that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are applicable to him. And that means that the collective is completely evil.

    Am I applying human morality to him? Of course I am!
    But, as myself - and other posters in this thread - mentioned - this type of morality belongs not only to humans. It belongs to every sentient species that has learned to cooperate, that created a civilization - both in the trekverse and in the real world.
    A species that has borg-like morality will never develop beyond savagery.

    You're actually saying that human concepts are not applicable to the borg because they "improve and grow"?
    MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT, john titor.
    It doesn't matter that they "improve and grow". It doesn't matter that they are stronger. They are still evil.
     
  2. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And Borg are just humans with robotic prosthetics.

    John, you can't have it both ways. Either we are talking in-universe, in which case the aliens are aliens and we have to accept their cultures and civilizations and ethics as they are introduced to us, or we are talking about TV shows and movies, in which case everybody is human, human being the species we have here on Earth that does most of the acting.

    Either way, the Borg do not come across as nice people.
     
  3. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    That aren't evil because its not relevant to them. You're still assuming that because they are sentient they must have human sentience, in other words they must possess the faculties which enable them to appreciate concepts such as good and evil. I'm arguing that their continual expansion is in tune with the philosophy of the universe, that they are at one with nature.


    But all the aliens can be human in universe, if you look at it in a certain way, remember the TNG episode where all the races share a common genetic ancestry? Which would explain why they all develop relatively similar civilizations, or in fact have civilizations for that matter.
     
  4. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    That only means that they are sociopaths, not that they are not evil.

    The universe does not encourage continual expansion. In actual nature, a species that expands its numbers too much will find itself unable to perpetuate itself because of the exponentially increased consumption of resources, and experience a population decline -- leading either to stability, or to extinction. The Borg are playing Russian roulette with their continual desire to expand -- it promises only to antagonize some other species until someone figures out a way to destroy them all. And there are powers, such as the Q, Prophets, Organians, and Metrons, capable of just that.
     
  5. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    Saying the borg exploit makes about as much sense as saying that the universe exploits emptiness by expanding or that an asteroid which slams into a planet is committing genocide.
     
  6. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    That applies to less intelligent species.
     
  7. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Emptiness doesn't have a will of its own and a desire not to be part of the Universe's expansion.

    Um, it is. It may not be responsible for its genocide, and it may not be doing it intentionally, but it is killing all members of a given species -- which is the definition of genocide. The term "genocide" does not always imply intent.

    But the Borg do have intent. They are not natural phenomena that lack a will. They are either the equivalent of sociopathic sentients, or they are the equivalent of malicious animals. Either way, they have no right to behave as they do and deserve to be exterminated.
     
  8. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I have a feeling most evil people in the real world also don't find it relevant that they are evil. They are doing what they need to do to fulfill their own agenda. The Borg are sentient. Just because they may not recognize or they may not care that what they're doing is evil doesn't suddenly make it not evil. I'm sure their victims would consider them evil.

    You say they're in tune with nature, but I just don't see it. Nature is about things happening naturally. Being abducted and then enslaved just so the Collective can get a little smarter is not natural. Do you get angry at a lion when it kills an antelope? No, because the lion needs to eat to survive. Do the Borg need to assimilate to survive? No, they don't. Hell, do they even need to assimilate in order to fulfill their goals? NO. They could, like so many other species, learn and grow by more traditional means.
     
  9. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    John, sorry, but you just are not making sense. If we all have the same ancestry, then the Borg do too.

    I think you are equating the Borg with a natural phenomenon - like an earthquake or a black hole. And I also think you are saying that just as an earthquake or a black hole is beyond goodness or badness...and just as an earthquake or a black hole has nor morality or mercy or justice, so the Borg are beyond all that, too.

    But it just doesn't wash. The Borg are not a natural force. The Borg is a collective of people. They started out as a species, and they made themselves into the Borg we know. So unlike earthquakes or black holes, they had a choice - and they make that choice every time they chose to assimilate. And just as they have all the rights of people and can make choices like people, they also have all the same responsibilities.

    Why you would want it any other way is a total mystery to me.
     
  10. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    True but the universe operates on the principle of exploitation. The borg are just a natural consequence of that.


    genocide1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a racial or national group.
    2. an actor in this process. — genocidal, adj.

    Asteroids aren't deliberate or systematic.
    See this is what Q was talking about, double standards.
    This would apply to alpha quadrant species. Note that not all species share this lineage, like the Q, the wormhole aliens and so forth. Choice is irrelevant to the borg, they are a program.
     
  11. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    Yep, this proves my point that the fed are died in the wool conservative stick in the muds.

    Why is survival the end point of nature? The borg are the new extrapolation of natural theory.

    Come on, there's got to be a few other borg supporters out there?
     
  12. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Oh, probably not many!

    And once again, the Borg aren't "nature." An earthquake is "nature." The Borg are people.
     
  13. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    But the Borg aren't a program. They have said themselves that they began as flesh and blood creatures that eventually started adding technology to themselves. They still think. The Collective still has free will. They can decide whether or not to assimilate something (as we have seen them do). They aren't some mindless natural disaster that happens to assimilate people. They do it because they want to.
     
  14. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    Obviously, consciousness is another concept that eludes you.
    Any sentient being has the ability to understand his/her actions and their consequences, and has free will. That's an intrinsic part of consciousness - it doesn't matter how "different" this sentience is.

    That's why the concepts of "good" and "evil" are applicable to any sentient being - including the borg.

    "That aren't evil because its not relevant to them."
    THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM NOT EVIL!
    I'll quote myself - maybe you'll actually read what I wrote this time:

    The borg "are most in tune with the universe as a place where if something is deficient it is removed or assimilated and improved." "their continual expansion is in tune with the philosophy of the universe," and "they are at one with nature."

    What nonsense.

    The universe is not sentient. It works according to the laws of physics - that means there is nothing "deficient" to be "removed" or "improved". Something "deficient" is something that doesn't follow the laws of nature - an impossibility.
    The universe (the laws of nature) favours the development of complexity, of life. It favours diversity.
    The universe does not have a philosophy - it's not sentient, remember? And the universe does not encourage continual expansion!

    None of these apply to the borg.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  15. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    They started as people, then they became a program. We are mostly a collection of algorithims, they just went all the way. They are following the dictates of their input.

    Lol, sentience and moral concepts aren't intertwined by necessity. Free will doesn't pressupose good or evil just as sight doesn't pressupose seeing ultraviolet.

    No, you see a sociopath knows what good and evil are, for the borg the concept doesn't even occur, its irrelevant.

    What nonsense.

    None of these apply to the borg.

    Yawn, debating over the meaning of words used. Ok basically when I mean philosophy of the cosmos, I don't mean sentience. I mean it in a platonic sense. I'm discussing the axioms which govern existence and which manifest themselves in the behaviour of everything, asteroids, planets, particles and species.

    Something thats deficient doesn't automatically mean it contradicts physical laws. Sheesh, I was talking about the natural evolution of the borg which is constantly refining itself.

    I've already answered the universe not encouraging continual expansion.
     
  16. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Speaking for myself, John, I have to say that we are all starting to repeat ourselves, so while I think your argument is extremely weak, I realize there's no way to convince you of that. I've already stated my objections, and I see no point in doing so again. So I'm going to bow out here, unless somebody comes up with something new.

    I don't know where you get the idea that the Borg are a program instead of a group of people, but even if that's the case...who wrote the program? People. It has to be because otherwise, why does the collective knowledge change - why does the "program" revise itself? - once they assimilate a new species? So if they are people, in the fullest sense of the word, they are therefore responsible for their actions. And if they are responsible, they can't really be compared to asteroids.
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    If the Borg were coming to my planet to assimilate me (rape me, kill me, or anything else of equal consequence), and I tell them "No, please, don't do that" and they proceed to do it anyway, I would think they were evil.

    I don't care if they disagree or if they don't care or if they don't even have a concept of right and wrong. What they did was evil.

    Again, they're not doing it because they need to. They're doing it because they're selfish and are putting their desires over that of the rest of universe.
     
  18. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Yeah. I mean, one could say that the Nazis at least had some reason for beginning their conquest - they were money and resource poor. Not that that's any excuse, but it is a fact. But the Borg don't have that excuse. They conquer...because they want to. Which is pretty much how the Nazis ended up, now that I think about it.
     
  19. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    The borg were explicitly established as being sentient in "Q Who", "The Gift" and about 10 other episodes.
    And sentience and morality ARE INTERTWINED BY NECESSITY. As I said, the notion of consciousness eludes you.

    The borg certainly know what good and evil are - they assimilated the information over and over again - they just don't care. They are sociopaths.

    The universe (the laws of nature) favours the development of complexity, of life. It favours diversity - the complete opposite of the borg.

    The universe does not refine itself. The laws of physics don't change.

    And the evolution of life - made possible by nature - is diversity. That's why earth is not populated solely by cockroaches (arguably, the toughest lifeforms) - nature doesn't allow it. Again - the complete opposite of the borg.
     
  20. ltcmmanderdata

    ltcmmanderdata Lieutenant Commander

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    interesting defense of the borg.it would've been interesting to see the borg become like what your talking about here.maybe there could be borg hives which function the way you speak of here?i appreciate your op.