Terminator-216 "SMWWSMS" - Discuss/Grade <Spoilers>

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by nx1701g, Feb 27, 2009.

?

Grade "Some Must Watch, While Some Must Sleep"

  1. "I'll be back." (Excellent)

    7.4%
  2. "Come with me if you want to live." (Above Average)

    35.2%
  3. "Thank you for explaining" (Average)

    20.4%
  4. "Hasta la vista, Baby." (Below Average)

    22.2%
  5. "You are terminated." (Poor)

    14.8%
  1. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Well, their chips were physically locked to prevent any sort of reprogramming. That had to have been done at the factory, which makes The Resistance less likely.
     
  2. nx1701g

    nx1701g Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Location:
    2001 - 2016
    ^ We don't know about Ellisonator being locked down for reprogramming.

    As for Sherman again we can't be sure of Rosie's motives for being sent back (or even if she was meant to kill Doctor Sherman). She could have been like Vic and sent back to protect him - she did go so far as to terminate Dr. Sherman's secretary so that she could replace her. If she were going on a simple termination mission it wouldn't make sense to establish an identity in the past.

    WONDERCON VIDEO - BIG SPOILERS
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2009
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I wonder if Ellison can elect to receive death by Snusnu?
     
  4. Tim

    Tim Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Location:
    Red Sox Nation
  5. HappyDayRiot

    HappyDayRiot Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Location:
    Cardiff, Wales
    That's putting it mildly.

    I am incredibly excited now - and I enjoyed Some Must Watch... a lot. It benefits from a second viewing once you realise what's real and what's not.
     
  6. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    That's what I was thinking. But that facility would have to be in close proximity to tend to that kind of wound. You might also think that Sarah would have gone to the same place instead of a public hospital since it would be more secure and there would be less questions about a breach. If the company's motives are fairly evil, I'm surprised she ended up at a hospital at all, and not in a river.

    It was possible for him to find out though. If not for Sarah, he might have. Knowing that she was the owner probably was one of the least of Weaver's concerns. Knowing about how the technology works and where it's being formed could be bad information in the wrong hands. And terminators just operate the way that they remove any possible threat.

    Hmm... it's hard to say for certain what she meant, but for some reason I got the impression that she was saying JH's interception of that message was a mistake. It makes more sense that the company made the mistake, but she just didn't phrase it that way.

    Yes, by a changing timeline theory, we could have hundreds of Dereks. I don't think the writers will go that route, but I also don't think they realize the implications of their time travel method. I mostly try to ignore the time travel on this show because it seldom makes sense. And that's too bad because I love thinking about time travel and it can create some interesting sci-fi if done right. This show is almost like the reason why people criticize time travel in Star Trek.

    Mostly because JH was not learning morals, and at Ellison's insistence, he started learning those morals. I think she's definitely trying to give JH human guidance of some sort because it was that guidance that makes Skynet.

    It's true that such a threat exists, but is somebody going to believe a little girl when she says that her mommy isn't really her mommy? From Savannah's perspective, her mom just changed after the crash. She doesn't know that Weaver is a terminator or anything else. She just knows she's different. Most people would chalk that up as something psychological, and they wouldn't assume she's a machine from the future.

    Maybe. But then the implication is that all of the machines sent back through time belong to a slightly different Skynet with possibly differing motives. Skynet would essentially be creating its own enemy through time travel spamming.
     
  7. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    There is a lot of uncertainty with all of that.

    The Ellison terminator was obviously there to replace Ellison. There are several reasons why this could have been:
    -To reach Weaver, although unlikely considering a terminator could've followed him instead of replacing him.
    -To prevent JH from learning morals, but at this point there would be no JH. JH came from Cromartie, and had Ellison been replaced, it's unlikely that Cromartie would be the host for JH. There's still Project Babylon based on the Turk, but it would probably learn about humanity in some way or another.
    -To be notified of the location of where John Connor was imprisoned in Mexico, although Skynet knowing of those events would be unlikely.
    -To be a ruse to motivate Ellison into some sort of action, but this seems a little bit too advanced, even for Skynet.
    -For some other event not yet known.

    With Rosie, her agenda also is uncertain. Was she going to kill Sherman? Was she going to protect him? She was pretty quick to fight Cameron, but it's possible she assumed that Cameron's mission was contrary. It's most likely she wasn't sent by the resistance, but could she have been sent by rogue machines? Are there factions within Skynet?

    For Skynet to kill every person who could teach JH about humanity, it would take a long list of terminators sent back to kill people. It would never end. There's nothing in particular about Ellison or Sherman that isn't replaceable. It would make more sense to kill the root of the problem, something which is inherent in Skynet's thinking. If you kill Sarah, John ceases to exist. If you kill Weaver, she will not hire someone to teach JH.

    Also, the fact is that someone somewhere will inevitably teach Skynet something about humanity and the difference between right and wrong. Originally Andy Goode was probably one of those people. No one is going to set loose a computer with moods in control of a nuclear arsenal. This may be speaking to the general illogic of the show though.
     
  8. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Location:
    Belgium
    Sarah drove herself back to the town, or near to it. She was then found and brought to the local hospital (producer Zack Stentz confirmed this - it was also hinted at by the blood on the seats of Sarah's Jeep, when found by the police). I guess Winston was alone at the plant at that time, and Sarah just happens to be a badass who makes Jack Bauer seem weak at times! She just keeps going and going and going, worse than a Duracell rabbit.

    But the point is, it was not the company (whether it is Weaver's or not) who found her. She saved herself.

    Terminator isn't really about time travel though, it is more a means to an end in this franchise, not something they really want to mull over. The writers have made clear that the timeline can change (makes sense, otherwise nothing Sarah or John does would ever make any difference) and that people don't magically wink out of existence when it does change. I am sure they will not go overboard with 100s of Dereks or something like that, but as they have established that this Jesse comes from a different future than Derek, they can re-use characters/actors that died in Derek's timeline if they want - which goes doubly so for his 4 companions, as those died in the present. Their counterparts from Jesse's time would probably still be alive in the future, or may also have been sent back.

    True. But then, we have seen Terminators, neither sent by the resistance AFAIK, killing each other (Cromartie with Ellisonator). We are also starting to see resistance members plotting against each other, and probably soon fighting each other (Jesse and co vs Derek and John and co). So, maybe both sides are indeed being their own enemy, sort of.
     
  9. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    I doubt the military would want an ethical machine in control of their weapons. The probability of it deciding not to launch when ordered to on ethical grounds would be far too high. Respect for life and the responsibility to vaporize millions without hesitation when ordered to do so don't mix very well.
     
  10. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Ah, good catch. I had just assumed that things ended when she appeared to pass out under the flying drone. From the way it was directed, it was hard to believe her getting up and driving anywhere.

    Agreed, but to a point things should make sense. Even Back to the Future, for as much as it was a comedy, still mostly stuck to its time travel rules. Having consistency like that is kind of nice. Not addressing the time travel at all starts to cast doubt on everything, especially with as much of it that happened earlier this season. I was glad when Jesse and Derek had that talk about time travel. I kept thinking, "It's about time." (Oh shit, that was a terrible pun, but I'm leaving it) John should be ultra curious as to how it works. Especially when people keep coming back to different times with different agendas. It starts to become a plot contrivance more than just a device to put things into motion.

    I think that in the tv format they have more room to work with time travel, and they end up glossing over it. The movies were more descriptive about it, which says a lot about the show.

    And they might not want to confuse the viewer. If another version of someone comes back, they'd better be ready to at least try and explain time travel rather than just brushing it aside as if it doesn't really matter.

    Cromartie is kind of a wild card though. He was originally sent back to 1999, so he was unexpected in 2007+. It seems he was given more independence than most terminators are if he can truly go against the wishes of Skynet.

    At any rate, Skynet originally didn't help itself by trying to kill Sarah before John was born since it helped to create John. Of course, no terminator story after T1 concretely follows that it was a paradox.

    It makes sense for this show, but in general there is no time travel theory that is totally logical to explain Skynet's behavior, even in the movies as a whole. If things can change, then destinies of Skynet and John would never be as concrete as they are.

    I guess I don't expect the writers to give it that much thought, but to me a show that features time travel shouldn't be as illogical as this.
     
  11. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    That is assuming that humans would no longer have control over their infrastructure. Any AI is going to have some default programming that implies not hurting anyone, and taking a backseat to human command. Skynet was originally established as a method of defense, not of aggressive warfare. That's just what it became accidentally.

    It's a lot easier to believe in an ethical computer becoming a government program trusted to run everything, than an emotional child-like computer becoming the same program.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The military's need to have ethical killing machines is inversely proportionate to how batshit their president is.

    Checks and balances.

    There were 8 years standing when America was one sex related heart attack away from having a President hell bent on a mad crusade for manbearpig.
     
  13. nx1701g

    nx1701g Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Location:
    2001 - 2016
    It seems that we're getting the death sooner than anticipated.

    Riley.
     
  14. Tim

    Tim Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Location:
    Red Sox Nation
    Good!
     
  15. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    The point of automating nuclear missiles is defense through MAD. You need a system that will launch everything even if the human leadership and infrastructure is destroyed. To paraphrase Dr. Strangelove, A doomsday weapon isn't much of a deterrent if there is a way to stop it.

    What they'd want is an AI that obeys the rules slavishly "If Russia attacks, launch all of the nukes at their predefined targets". It's the simplest and best defense. The Russians won't attack if they know that it is impossible to avoid being nuked in retaliation.
     
  16. Brent

    Brent Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Location:
    TARDIS
    yayayayayayayayayayyayya
     
  17. nx1701g

    nx1701g Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Location:
    2001 - 2016
    I was reading online that a new computer system called Deep Waters will activate in 2011 that will run nuclear war simulations. The scary part is it'll come online roughly at the same time as Skynet in TSCC (April 21, 2011)
     
  18. Brent

    Brent Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Location:
    TARDIS
    and very close to the mythical year 2012 when the world is supposed to end, or aliens invade, or something
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Myan calendar concludes. The Smoking Man in the last episode of the X-Files told Mulder and Skully that it was an notifiable date to be watchful for. Fear spiraled from there.
     
  20. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    The dragons wake up in 2012. One of them is going to give a series of interviews and eventually get his own talk show.
     

Share This Page