Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Noddy, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. Noddy

    Noddy Captain

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    I can't believe the Hansens were given all available info on the Borg while Picard, a starfleet captain in charge of the Federation flagship, was left in the dark. It just doesn't add up.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Starfleet works in mysterious ways.
     
  3. Noddy

    Noddy Captain

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    More like Starfleet is run by imbeciles. They seriously didn't think it was worth warning the fleet about, even after the "Regeneration" incident and the loss of the Hansens?

    And why didn't Starfleet seem to be aware that the Borg assimilated lifeforms as well as technology in "The Best of Both Worlds", when Captain Archer found that out over two hundred years ago?
     
  4. Elias Vaughn

    Elias Vaughn Captain Captain

    Why would Starfleet connect mechanical remains found in the arctic that couldn't beat one NX class ship to the cube that massacred nearly 40 Starfleet ships? There's more than one cybernetic race around.

    Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
     
  5. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Trying to make stories make sense compared to stories written years or decades earlier, when those later stories change established history, is often a hopeless case.
     
  6. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Premium Member

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    What you have to remember when it comes to writers like Christopher, it's his interpretation of things, yes he gets paid for what he does and it gets sanctioned along the line from someone, but it is his interpretation of things, no more, no less.

    The writers of First Contact intended that those events happened then, they will happen again and they always happened.

    Or as someone who knows a lot about time travel said, it's [more] like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff.

    Classified.
     
  7. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But Noddy has a point. Riker and LaForge are, by the movie's own depiction, people who've studied Cochrane's life in obsessive detail. If Cochrane had an episode late in life when he ranted about cyborg aliens from the future come to kill him, they'd likely have at least heard of it even if it were just ``and we're embarrassed this great historical figure had a breakdown like that'', and when they travelled back in time to stop cyborgs from the future from killing Cochrane, yeah, it should've triggered some ``oh yeah'' memories and a moment of ``I guess he was wiser than we even guessed''.

    And yeah, of course, it didn't happen (at least on-screen) because nobody making the show/movies had thought about that.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the prime timeline, there isn't a chasm down the middle of Florida.


    :)
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And how do we know this? We don't, of course.

    I mean, Florida was never even mentioned, let alone seen, in all of trek prior to this time. So for all we know, Florida-TOS *did* have that chasm in it.
     
  10. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    If that were true, then Kirk and crew should have noticed a big jagged scar was missing when they orbited the equivalent of the North American continent on Miri's planet.
     
  11. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm of the belief that Enterprise and the Temporal Cold War and Xindi Arc events created the Abrams timeline, even before Nero and Spock altered that timeline further, because of how advanced the Kelvin is compared to the original TOS Enterprise, and the events of Enterprise occurred without the Temporal Cold War and the Xindi Arc lead us to TOS\TNG\DS9\VOY.

    After all, the only thing in Trek to survive the Abrams reboot was Enterprise.
     
  12. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Rather then the events depicted in Enterprise changing the universe of TOS and TNG, it might be more likely that the events of Enterprise would be erased, preserving the timeline of TOS and TNG. The Temporal Cold War was depicted as occurring on several fronts. The 22nd century was far minor compared to the 31st century. What Archer does likely strengthens the position of the Federation in the 31st century (certainly by guaranteeing its existence). Nonetheless, victory in the conflict would have to be seen from the perspective of the Federation in 31st century, and presumably, it would attempt to restore as much of the timeline as possible when it can. At the very least, the shape of the 23rd and 24th centuries would reflect more the events of the 31st century that the 22nd.

    Possible consequence: we can blame Daniels for Orci and Abrams.
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Even if Florida was seen in TOS or TNG, they've had ample time to fill in the chasm and restore everything.

    Is the Kelvin advanced? It was big and had a lot of shuttles, but I don't see anything beyond what TOS Trek had or what could have been built 30+years prior. The NX-class looks far more modern than the TOS Constitution-class, but as we saw in "In a Mirror, Darkly" they're no match.
     
  14. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I personally think ENT is AU because of all the TCW shenanigans.

    Compare episode TNG season 4 x 15 First Contact with ENT 1 x 01 and 02 Broken bow. In the TNG episode Picard says that first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. Yet if you watch Broken Bow, there is nothing resembling a preamble to war.
    *Interfence by the Suliban and Future Guy can be blamed for the discrepancy of the history Picard recites and what we actually see in the epiosde Broken Bow.*

    In ENT 3 x 11 Carpenter Street, Daneils tells Archer that history doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi. Quoting Daniels to Archer: "The events that are taking place are a result of temporal incursion. They are not supposed to be happening".

    ENT 3 x 18 Azati Prime, Daniels shows Archer the war between the Federation and the Sphere builders in the 26th century. Daniels lays out the motive for the Sphere Builders meddling with time. The Sphere builders are on the losing side of a war with the Fed and Xindi. The Sphere builders decided to use time travel to usurp established history and use the Xindi in the 22nd century to destroy Earth. This would be before Earth and the Xindi had ever made first contact and before Xindi joined the Fed.

    *The of meddling by TCW factions can be used to explain why we the audience and characters in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY never heard of the events and aliens that we saw take place in the first 3 seasons of ENT. To borrow a line from Doctor Who, "Time can be rewritten". That is exactly what we see happening in ENT. This (and other things) IMO should classify ENT as an AU series.


    With regards to the Borg, FC, Regeneration, Year of Hell and Relativity thing. *deep breath* Think about it this way.

    Regeneration is obviously a sequel to FC. There are no problems there. Time travel adventures can leave things behind in the past. Similar to the arm of the Terminator in the 1984 film and the sequel T2.

    The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC. Ignoring that episode Regeneration and ENT the series had not been conceived yet. I maintain there is no way 7 of 9 can know that. The dish the Borg were constructing to contact the collective in 2063 was destroyed by Picard and Worf BEFORE they could send a message out. You can literally watch FC and then YOH and Relativity and scratch your head wondering HOW 7 of 9 knew that. It has been said before that Regeneration's inclusion "fixes" the gaffe. However at the time when Relativity was written, 1999. It's obliviously a mistake by the writers in an attempt to sound meta. They should've gone back and actually watched FC before referencing it.

    Other gaffes in Relativity include"

    The first time the Doctor was activated. The Doctor himself says he was first activated during the Caretaker situation, in the episode 'Projections'. 'Relativity' contradicts that.

    In "Future's End', Captain Braxton says he has no memories of being stranded in the 20th century. Yet in 'Relativity' he says he does remember that life.

    In 'Caretaker' Janeway says she wants Tom Paris to help her find the Maqui. In 'Relativity' it's changed to wanting him for his piloting skills. Despite him never piloting the ship in the Badlands. VOY had a pilot in Caretaker episode. She died because of the displacement wave transporting VOY to the DQ.


    These are continuity errors present in one series complied in ONE episode. Were the writers and producers too busy to actually watch the episodes they were attempting to reference?


    Lastly the pogo paradox/predestination paradox thing applied to FC via Relativity doesn't hold water for me.
    Compare time travel in FC to time travel in Terminator 1984 for example. The machines//skynet send a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Connor before she gives birth to John Connor. John Connor sends his own father, Kyle Reese in to the past to protect, fall in love, and have intercourse with his mother. Kye also gave Sarah massive amounts of spoilers about the coming war which would ensure she would train John. This would ensure that John himself would be born to fight the machines.

    This is a causality loop. Kyle Reese does not exist in 1984. He hadn't even been born yet. If he never time traveled to the past, then Sarah Connor wouldve died and never gotten pregnant with John. Also if the machines/Skynet had never sent that first Terminator in to the past to kill Sarah, then John Connor of the future would've never sent Kyle Reese to the past. The future John created himself via casualty loop in a sense. While the rise of the machines would be explored later in T2 and T3 with use of more time travel.


    Compare to FC where Zefram Cochrane was already planning to conduct his warp flight on schedule. The then Borg show up and act like time traveling saboteurs on Cochrane's camp and bunker. In one timeline the Borg succeeded in assimilating all of Earth. In another timeline the ENT-E and her crew travelled back in time and thwarted the Borg. They tried to minimize the temporal incursions damage as much as they could but people died, Cochrane saw the ENT-E, Lily saw the Borg, and well as future tech onboard the ENT-E the crew of the ENT-E gave out massive amounts of spoilers to Cochrane about his future, and the future of Earth.

    *it;s funny because Cochrane tried to run away from his destiny after hearing all the details the crew of the ENT-E told him. Riker had to shoot Cochrane and drag him in to the cockpit of the Phoenix just to ensure history would fold out the way it's recorded. You don't need the Borg to sabotage history. The ENT-E crew violating the temporal prime directive can destroy it all by themselves lol.


    I digress. However the point i'm trying to make is that the Borg's incursion was not a predestination or casualty loop when compared to time travel mechanics in Terminator. The events in FC fit more in line with what we see in ENT with the Xindi arc, ST09 with Nero and Spock, TNG Yesterday's Enterprise, DS9's Children Of Time, and VOY's Timeless or Endgame. One timeline of events that was supplanted and erased by another timeline of events due to revision by use of time travel.
     
  15. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, at the time, Picard was still commanding a little known ship called the Stargazer.
    Sure, it does. The Borg simply weren't well known to everyone in Starfleet--at the time, they were just one of probably many rumored dangerous races that had yet to be officially contacted (that honor still goes to the Enterprise-D).
    Couldn't have said it better.

    I think it wasn't until after the Enterprise-D's encounter with them that the Borg became known to everyone and ceased being a rumor known to just a few.
     
  16. GameOn

    GameOn Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The collective would have been in contact with the sphere and known that it was going to travel back in time to stop first contact.

    Same here and it would be inconsistent with the DS9 episode "Past Tense" where Sisko clearly changes history when he replaces Gabriel Bell.
     
  17. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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  18. GameOn

    GameOn Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    This would be pretty inconstant with Starfleets mission to seek out new life and to defend the Federation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2013
  19. Nine of Four

    Nine of Four Commander Red Shirt

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    I've always wondered... was FC before or after Voyager got back home??

    And as to why the Borg didn't try again, it failed the first time, and the Borg don't think like "if at first you don't succeed, try again." To them, if it didn't work the first time, it will never work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2013
  20. GameOn

    GameOn Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah the sphere going back in time was plan B. Assimilating Earth in the past wouldn't be of much benefit seeing as the Borg want technology. What it would do is give them a foothold in the alpha quadrant so they could assimilate anyone else at will.