Tacking Into the Wind

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Dale Sams, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    DAMAR: " What kind of state tolerates the murder of innocent women and children? What kind of people give those orders?"

    KIRA: " Yeah Damar, what kind of people give those orders?"

    Oh that HAD to have been written by...(looks it up)...yup. Ron Moore.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I've watched the episode several times lately, since I've been pigging out after buying Season 7 last week.

    It really was a weak line and too much of an obvious setup.
     
  3. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was talking about the implied criticism of the USA. My theory based on Ron's treatment of BSG whereas 'our heroes' are often the terrorists. It's not a direct analogy, but it shows Ron isn't afraid to make a bold implication like that.

    ...of course, it's very possible I'm full of it. Maybe I can dig up an email (unlikely) and ask him.
     
  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Commander Red Shirt

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    But the episode came out in 1999, well before the shit hit the proverbial fan with regards to US foreign policy.
     
  5. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We've been bombing the crap out of civvies since Tripoli. But i agree there's a damn good chance Ron Moore would tell me..."Uhhh, no."
     
  6. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, yeah, that's true, but things didn't really start getting controversial until 2001-2003.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    That's not clear from your initial post, and I've not seen Moore's BSG. I interpreted the scene as referring to any totalitarian regime, since the Cardassians seem to be stand-ins for Space Nazis.

    edit: Maybe I should have used the term "authoritarian", but I didn't study political science.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  8. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    Funny, other than Ezri's talking to Worf, I thought that line was the best line in the episode. Was it obvious, maybe, but it was true and too the point. Also considering the history of Bajor and Cardassia, it was almost a line that needed to be said in that context.
     
  9. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was a very good line for Damar. But having Kira repeat it to drive home the point felt like a cliche and lazy writing to me. Surely Moore could have come up with a less obvious line for her. I think it would have been dramatically better for Damar to realize the answer himself as soon as he said it, without Kira's prompting. It could have been done with just a look at her.
     
  10. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That would defeat the purpose of the exchange. As Garak tells her a moment later, "Damar has a certain romanticism about the past. He could use a dose of cold water."

    Damar needed the point shoved in his face. It's not something that would have occurred to him on his own.
     
  11. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe I just haven't watched it enough. I missed a lot from the 6th & 7th season arcs when they first aired.
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I swear, seems like you can't watch any show these days without someone taking a few lines from it and drawing some parallel to suit their particular social or political agenda... can't we just take the shows at face value? If I wanted to watch social and political commentary I'd turn on a news channel. Shows like this are meant for entertainment, the news is just depressing to watch.

    To this particular scene, I really thought the facial expressions on both Kira and Damar's faces said so much more than just those lines. You can almost just see the wheels turning in Damar's head on that one. He's about to snap back with some scalding come back and then just suddenly realizes... yeah I killed Ziyal for the same reasons the Founder killed my wife and kids and realizes he wasn't much different than the enemy he was fighting.
     
  13. lvsxy808

    lvsxy808 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Uh, no. Star Trek has always, since its first episode, been about taking contemporary social and political issues and transposing them into a science fiction setting in order to comment on them rationally without the hysterical reactionism discussing them in a contemporary setting would generate. That is a part of its very point and existence, alongside all that other stuff. You're welcome to take it at face value if you want, but that doesn't mean that layer isn't there. We're not imagining it.
    .
     
  14. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, if it hadn't been Moore...I wouldn't have said anything.
     
  15. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    But that's still not clear from your original post, which started this entire discussion. I'm sorry that I couldn't read your mind over the internet and know you were comparing it to Battlestar Galactica.
     
  16. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well your avatar *looks* like a guy who can read minds!

    re: My finding Ron Moore's e-mail.

    I did embarrassingly find Ron's father on Facebook. Who apparently is also named Ronald D. Moore. And no I didn't ask for Ron Jr's E-mail.
     
  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    You could have told Ron Sr. you were with the FBI and it was urgent you contact Ron Jr.
     
  18. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I always thought Cardassia represented Israel and Bajor - Palestine.
     
  19. lvsxy808

    lvsxy808 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think part of the whole pleasure of it - and sadly the point of it - is that there is no one-to-one direct correlation, because these kind of things have happened and are happening and will happen over and over again all over the world. Every time with its own slight variations, but basically at root the same thing. Each viewer superimposes his own cultural viewpoint onto it, given their own history and political leanings, but the basic concept is sadly always the same. That's why it hits home to so many people - it speaks to universal aspects of the human condition, even if the details may not be precisely the same.