Surviving Vulcan Elders.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by T'Girl, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. chardman

    chardman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm guessing this is correct. You don't count people who weren't directly involved. For example, I've heard it said that about 15,000 people in the World Trade Center escaped before the towers collapsed on 9/11. If you were asked "How many people survived", would you limit your answer to the 15,000 who were actually there and escaped, or would you also include the nearly 7 billion of us who survived the event because we weren't even there?
     
  2. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If the Federation use Spock's knowledge of the future to its benefit, why the hell wouldn't the Klingons send their own emissary back earlier still to undo him and do even more to its own benefit. Same with the Romulans, Tholians, or Borg?

    With Spock's knowledge the Federation wouldn't merely deal with the space amoeba and save a redshirt or fifty, but they could take over the galaxy. THAT's why the JJ-verse won't have him spill too much of what he knows: because it wouldn't be about giving the writers room for new developments in the Trek universe, it'd be them having to create a Trek universe too divergent from what they're looking for.
     
  3. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sending them back the same way as in STXI wouldn't undo anything in the Abramsverse, it would just create another branching timeline.
     
  4. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because those would create yet MORE alternate timelines, while not supplanting the original. Remember, Worf (on that DS9 ep where they meet tribbles) said that the Klingon Empire actually did try that very thing - sending temporal assault teams back in time to blow up their enemies' homeworlds. Obviously this didn't succeed in changing the regular timeline...
     
  5. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah but do you think that's what the writers are looking for? They just created THIS timeline. They're looking to play with IT, NOT the gimmick of perpetual time travel. Trek, not Who.

    And re Trek, the branching off universe is a new way of looking at time travel in Trek. Obviously in the past it was the same timeline they looked to alter, which again says something about why they wouldn't jump to use future Spock's knowledge right off the bat: there must be some Mutually Assured Destruction thing going on where no one does it for fear of everyone doing it. Either that or some timecops keeping things kosher.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I like Watching the Clock's interpretation of things - that it was the method of time travel in Star Trek that caused the alternate reality to split off. The black hole was a strictly one-way transfer, so the resulting timelines weren't entangled and so don't merge as the ones using two-way time travel ("Yesterday's Enterprise" etc) do. That way classic Trek's myriad time travel stories (and future ones in the novels) aren't rendered obsolete.
     
  7. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Every time I see the title of this thread I think of Vulcan Elders coming at me with canes, ready to beat me.
     
  8. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

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    There are two problems that I see with the "Temporal Prime Directive" argument.

    1. The events of the new films take place before Starfleet had developed TNG-style rules about changing timelines.

    More importantly...

    2. The characters in the film themselves recognized that they were in an alternate timeline caused by Nero's intervention.

    Nu-Trek is not part of the old timeline, but is boldly going in its own direction. There is not future to screw up or ruin. They are on a brand new branch in a branching timeline. Their timeline is already radically different from that of old Trek. They've learned that their technological disadvantages can result in entire planets getting destroyed while their fleets are blasted apart like toys.

    Their future is open (that was the whole point of the reboot). Spock would simply be like encountering an alien with superior technology the UFP with whom the UFP commonly interacts to get more tech. Spock is THE surviving elder. He may save countless lives, prevent countless wars, cure countless diseases.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Spock was the very first character to warn us of the dangers of contaminating the timeline back in 1966 with Tomorrow is Yesterday.

    But we've seen multiple contacts with the Narada by 23rd century forces. The first contact in 2233 obviously altered the way Starfleet designs and constructs ships as we see the Constitution-class get a much later start in the divergent timeline. I would also think that some scans from both the Klingon and Starfleet encounters with the ship in 2258 would have survived as well.
     
  10. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Heh, you're not the only one :alienblush:

    I too believe, the 10,000 survivors are 10,000 survivors of the specific event of Vulcan blowing up, rather than only 10,000 total of the Vulcan people being left alive.
     
  11. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

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  12. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is why the rest of my post was the way it was. :techman:
     
  13. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Some things about altering the timeline:

    1) Spock can't alter it too much to one party's advantage or others would do it too. I.e. Sure he can warn the Federation about the destruction of the Deneb colony, but he'd also have to warn the Klingons about the loss of their Ch'whatsit colony by the flying killer brains of Jabnab IV.

    2) He can't give the Feds too much in the way of weapons knowledge or the Klingons would have a fit and send their own emissaries back in time or creating alternate timelines/dimensions - possibly ones that would come to the aid of their brothers in this one.

    3) If he told everyone about the loss of the E-C saving Narendra III, would the Klingons believe him securing peace earlier; would pro-war parties in their government make a war happen sooner not wanting peace with the Feds; would the Romulans strike early?

    4) Even giving medical knowledge to everybody he could remember, what if the Tzenkethi got all pissy their diseases weren't remembered and started a war over it. Or if the Sheliak found the spreading such knowledge as dangerous as the proliferation of WMD and started a war over that?

    All that said, I don't know I wouldn't spill everything I knew were I in the position to do so, hoping that the info I spread would be used for the best. Still, for the entertainment franchise that is Star Trek, it can't be changed so much that it's unrecognizable to its fans/profitable.
     
  14. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Just saw your sig, BillJ. Wonder what those reasons would be...muhahahahahahaaaa
     
  15. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    With an advanced knowledge of the politics of the time, he might be able to broker peace and save countless lives.
     
  16. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

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    Then he has a moral obligation to do both. Share as much information as he can about avoidable tragedies.

    This is the same Spock who was willing to break treaties and violate the neutral zone with Kirk to steal just one cloaking device. There's no need now as Spock can discretely disclose to the Federation how Klingon cloaks work. And that means that the Federation does not need to risk a war.

    If Spock, as you say, should be concerned about the balance of power, his superior information would allow for a much less risky balancing of power.

    He's not obligated to give everyone all the details. He is, however, obligated to the mission of the United Federation of Planets. He's in a new timeline, so he can't be entirely sure that things will play out to the advantage of the Federation, so he should do what he can to make sure that delicate causal nodes in history don't tip the wrong way (e.g., the Enterprise Incident).

    This seems much less plausible. Medical knowledge would simply be welcomed. And the UFP doesn't have to tell everyone how they found it.

    If certain medical knowledge is dangerous, he might hold that knowledge back.

    Which is why this is a nice little tension in our new universe. The very existence of old Spock in this universe means that someone who knows the spoilers details of the original 5 year mission (and much more!) of the Enterprise is there to tell them

    *He's not a Greek God. Refuse to worship him and he'll lose his power.

    *Give the Defiant a wide berth.

    *Yes, it is vampire cloud monster. Here is how you kill it.

    *The Gorn believe that these planets are theirs. They will totally kill anyone who tried to settle here.

    *The horta is not your enemy.

    But look at it from another angle! Old Spock is now a reason why they can have totally new adventures. He can warn them off of needless dangers so that they may face different challenges.
     
  17. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    I don't think there's a reason to fear someone else will go back in time and try to give their side an advantage, because, for one, blowing up a star with Red Matter and traveling back through the wormhole isn't exactly the safest method of Time travel, plus, it would result in the Traveler being sent to another alternate branch.

    However, there is a risk of making of things worse. For instance, let's forget Prime Spock for minute, who could share more advanced tech, but, let's say someone else traveled back and prevented the encounter with the Borg at Wolf 359. If the Federation hadn't been devastated by the Borg, they wouldn't have ramped up their military tech, and therefore, would've been conquered by the Dominion, because Wolf 359 put them on a footing where they were able put up a good fight. Or maybe stopping the Doomsday Device 3 years earlier, prevents it from destroying a Civilization that rises up to eventually destroy the Federation. Even saving someone, could result in the saved ending up leading to a threat down the road.
     
  18. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ... and it's the Temporal Cold War again.
     
  19. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

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    With all due respect, this is a weak argument.
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Eh, tell that to any Science Ficton story that subscribes to "don't step on a butterfly". The odds are pretty even, if you cure a plague, that one of those who died in the time line, lives in this timeline and grows up to become he next Hitler and is personaly responsible for the death of just as many millions as were saved by curing the plague. We have to look no further than Edith Keeler herself, it was a good honorable, noble thing, and dfinitely the right thing to do to save her life, but, look what she went on to cause when she wasn't killed. So, I assume you believe City on the Edge of Forever is a weak episode, since it is TOS and uses the very same argument?