Superman Returns: Did Richard Know?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Broccoli, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I would say no. He never seemed defensive or possessive enough when Superman was around and he never made any snide remarks about Superman to Lois.

    Let's face it, much as I like that movie, it wasn't really all that subtle (eg all the Christ imagery) being laid on with a trowel. I think that if it had been intended that we know Richard knows, there would have been a conversation or dialogue to that effect. Possibly after Lois whispered in Supes' ear in the hospital - she goes out to Richard who says 'Did you tell him?' 'Yes', says Lois. Cut to Richard looking worried but nodding acceptingly. Something like that.
     
  2. JacksonArcher

    JacksonArcher Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought its subtle nuances is what made it so great in my opinion. The way Clark would steal a glance at Lois when she wasn't looking. Moments between Superman and Lois like on the rooftop where you can tell the two have a history just by their reactions, or lack thereof. Or my favorite, when Lois is on the plane and looks out the window just moments before Superman whizzes by, as if knowing he would appear. The movie is full of little terrific subtle moments like that.
     
  3. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why would he? Richard is a good guy; not a jack ass. Clearly, he is secure in his relationship with Lois where he doesn't need to make snide comments. He does show some uncomfortableness when talking about Superman (particularly during the "did you love him?" scene). But I think that would be somewhat expected when talking about his partner's old love.

    Yes, but if that happened, we wouldn't be having this conversation... :p
     
  4. Cmndr J Crichton

    Cmndr J Crichton Commodore Commodore

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    I know this sounds very wierd, but here I go. I always thought that If Singer was able to make a sequel, Zod would've inhabited Richard. Think about it. Supes having to struggle between fighting Jason's adopted father, or ridding the galaxy of Zod by killng Richard. And what about Jason? Set this movie a few years ahead, his powers begin to emerge. Would he stand by and watch Superman beat his step-dad up? He obviously wouldn't know it was Zod, so a huge mis-understading takes place, and an epic battle between father and son ensues. Zod manipulates the whole thing, and begins to take over the world. Of course, Jason, and Superman reconsile, and go after Zod together evetually. I know they wanted to use Zod in the sequel somehow. This would b a good way to do so without using Stamp's Zod again. It would've also been neat to see what James Marsden could bring to Supes' ultimate villain.
     
  5. dragunzng

    dragunzng Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Pretty sure Richard knew Jason wasn't his, but I don't think he knew Jason was Superman's kid.
     
  6. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know how I would have liked that, personally. Setting aside the use of Zod (again), I like the idea that Richard is just a regular guy. Added to that that he is what Clark Kent would be if Clark wasn't Superman. I would rather keep him as is.
     
  7. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    Rule #1
    If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

    Richard then would have no knowledge of who Jason's father is, especially if he has to ask if Lois ever loved Superman. Admittedly this is thrown into shadow by the fact that Lois lies. She lies to Richard and tells him that she never loved Superman. She also lies to Lex and tells him that Richard is the boy's father, but we all know that's not true. We know it from the get go, we don't even need to be told. So there is some wriggle room, but I'd say not much or else you're living in your own speculative imagination and not in the script.

    My inclination was that nobody knew who Jason's real father was until he saves his mother with a piano. Richard is his own kind of hero and he acts toward Lois' love for Superman in the only way that a man who truly loves a woman can, by delivering her to her heart's desire. He may feel secure in the knowledge that Superman is an unrealistic guy to consider having a relationship with, but I doubt even that much and it doesn't matter.

    For the record, I was raised by a man who is not my biological father, but I always called him 'Dad' even after I met my father as an adult. My biodad I call by his first name. Neither man seems to begrudge the other his history or status in my life.
     
  8. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    True. This is all speculation. Being the OP, I have never suggested otherwise.

    However, that does not mean that it is not worth talking about. When analyzing a piece of literature, music, art, or film, you have to delve into speculation in order to come to some meaning over the movie.

    Many people see different things in a movie depending on how they interpret different scenes. Many movies are left intentionally ambiguous in order to provoke thought with the audience.

    To suggest that this discussion is not worthwhile (which may not be your intention, yet that is how I am interpreting it) suggests that it is not worthwhile to explore possibilities in stories altogether (which, ironically, was why, in part, this BBS was founded in the first place).

    And this is your speculative imagination. There is nothing in the script that outright says any of that. However, it is worth discussing if we choose to gain a deeper level of understanding/enjoyment/whatever you want to call it of the film.

    Which is how I would expect the relationship to be between Jason, Richard, and Superman post-SR. At least, I would hope it to be.
     
  9. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm not trying to poop on anyone's imagination and I apologise if I've come off that way. I can be a bit blunt at times. I'm just trying to define the mine field between what is explicit in the script and implicit within its context. If we go too far into the 'ifs' we can lose the facts.

    I think the most important point in my post was overlooked because of my tone and that is that Richard asks Lois if she ever loved him. This means he doesn't know that Supe is Jason's father. Maybe he knows she's lying to him and begins to suspect or believe, but without any scriptual justification I wouldn't hold out much hope. Even if he does see through her lie he may still not suspect Jason's true heritage.

    Maybe we'll learn more in the next movie.
     
  10. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm inclined to state that Richard didn't know until at least the end of the movie...I say this because remember when Clark spies on them in their house we hear their conversation where Richard asks Lois about Superman. Lois becomes flustered and explains the article title meant nothing and that his Uncle Perry came up with it. It's clear that Richard is a little intimidated by Superman's return and that Lois hasn't revealed the extent of her true feelings for him. Lois would not have remembered her time with Superman in the Fortress, at leas not right away so there wasn't anything to tell Richard when Jason was born.

    Much like Clark I like to think that Jason's powers developed over the five years...and then suddenly he gets a burst of Super strength (maybe like when Clark lifts the truck over Jonathon's head in Superman The Movie, I like to think this is the first demonstration of Clark's powers). Richard probably strongly suspects that Lois and Superman had some kind of relationship before he came along near the end of the movie.
     
  11. FalTorPan

    FalTorPan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I love the movie, too, and I believe that (1) Lois knew that Superman was Jason's biological father, and (2) Richard knew that he wasn't Jason's biological father.
     
  12. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've been checking this thread on and off, and what it all comes down to is that everything is open to interpretation. Whether or not Richard knew about Jason's parentage would depend on what Lois had known from the very beginning.

    Let's consider the following. If Lois didn't know of Jason's biological father, then that would make her a very stupid, clueless woman. (One could argue about the amnesia/memory loss, but that's assuming SR's continuity is linked to the first two Donner films). If Lois DID know who Jason's real father was and she kept it from Richard, that would make her a liar.

    EDIT:

    In sum, Superman/Clark didn't know (at least not at first).

    Lois might have known.

    Richard didn't know (IMHO, nor did he care) until it was made apparent to him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  13. MNM

    MNM Captain Captain

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    I admit it's been a while since I saw this film, but is there any evidence in it to show that the kid is actually Supermans? all I remember is a piano flying across the room, but that it wasnt shown how that had happened, it was more an assumption that the kid had done it, and it could have just as easily been the boat they were on lurching that did it?
     
  14. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the piano scene, we see the piano fly across the room at a really fast rate. The shot cuts to the kid who has his hands outstretched where the piano was. The piano could have spontaneously moved, or the boat could have rocked, but considering there was no jarring movement to force the piano to move a such a great speed, this is unlikely.

    Also, his Asthma suddenly stopped, which links to the flashback earlier in the movie that Clark gained perfect vision when he learned how to fly.

    Also, there is the fact that Lois tells Superman and Superman comes to the house later to give him the speech his father gave him. So, unless Superman was under a horribly mistaken assumption, the kid was his.
     
  15. MNM

    MNM Captain Captain

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    So it's more an educated guess rather than anything outright said? Thought I didnt remember that line.

    If that is all so, then I doubt Richard knew.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Admiral Admiral

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    Been awhile since I saw the movie, but from what I recall she didn't answer Lex.
     
  17. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    My DVD player is on the fritz so I can't check right now to be absolutely certain, but I own the movie and I just watched it a few weeks ago and as I recall it, Lex asks her directly who, "that boy's father" is and she replies, "Richard". I could be wrong. I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty sure that's what's said.
     
  18. Worf2DS9

    Worf2DS9 Writer Rear Admiral

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    ^ Yeah, that's what she said. Then Lex replied, "Are you sure?"

    As for the piano, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it was also nailed down like everything else to prevent it from moving around on the high seas? A simple lurch of the yacht wouldn't have shot the piano across the room at such a high rate of speed (not to mention exactly where it needed to go, nor at the precise second it needed to). To me, it's pretty obvious Jason did the deed.
     
  19. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I thought it was indisputable that Jason moved the piano. This thread is the first time I've seen anything else suggested.
     
  20. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She said "Richard", but did so in a frightened manner, which can indicate two things: 1) She was simply scared, because Lex was asking things specifically about her kid or 2) She knew that the kid was Supes' and didn't want Lex to know and/or have Lex expose the Kryptonite to Jason (which, of course, he does moments later in which Jason doesn't react to it).
     

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