STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by RAMA, Feb 18, 2009.

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  1. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

    -Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits gave us his two cents at
    San Diego Comic Con, 2006
    http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=7762

    Obviously that would be a test done from the scanning of the 35mm original camera negative to HD tape at 1080/24p.
    In 1987 the 35mm telecine to standard definition video (480i) options were not great especially when recording to 1" analog videotape. Today's telecine machines working at 2k resolution really pull so much more detail and information out of camera negatives.
    The costs _ARE_ very high to re-edit a show when it is not telecined as from a cut negative that was conformed (such as "ER" and "NYPD Blue" and "ST:TOS" were.) If Paramount can make a profit on fan collective remaster packages maybe they will put them out on Blu-Ray. 7 full seasons are just not worth the effort to them.

    It probably is unlikely that the CGI effects projects themselves from 1987-1994 were archived, even remain accessible, or are able to be imported into todays software due to Operating Systems and software versions.
    Most likely if CGI effects were recreated in HD Eden FX's Gabriel Köerner's model would be used with the current NewTek LightWave 3D v9 software to render out to 1080/24p.

    Ron Moore one of the veterans of ST:TNG digital visual effects mentioned his effects on ST:TNG were created [at 29.97fps] without the 3:2 pulldown mimicing a 24fps-film-to-videotape-look.
    according to the Millimeter.com March 2002 article on "ST:Enterprise" CGI effects. This is only part of the reason why the digital CGI work done on ST:TNG looked bad.

    If they do decide to do it I sure hope the visual effects house contracted has access to the original Andrew Probert designs of the NCC-1701-D as well as the 3-D CGI model
    as mentioned here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-D)

    Okay that would be the CGI model used in 1987 season 1 and future seasons 2-7, the one built by John Knoll, the one built by Gabriel Köerner as all official TV or cinema NCC-1701-Ds. I will not count the NCC-1701-Ds created for any videogames by the videogame developers.
    3 different models created of the Enterprise-D. Only one CGI model was actually used on the TNG television series I believe.

    One would think the two CGI models created in 1994 by John Knoll and 2005 by Gabriel Köerner would both be up to the detail level for an HD render. Surely one of those two models could be transferred to current CGI software.

    If you want a look at what the recreated and rerendered Enterprise-D would look like on any Blu-Ray remaster as far as lighting, shading, and small design differences than the original TNG CGI NCC-1701-D then check out Enterprise-D's appearance in Star Trek: Enterprise's series finale, "These Are the Voyages..." for a pretty good idea (even if only in standard def.)
     
  2. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    Re: ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

    Interesting details! Mostly familiar, but its still a bit depressing. TOS-R spurred interest amongst fans in TOS (the TOS forum came alive) and it would do the same for STNG.
     
  3. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

    How long did it take to complete the remastering for TOS? Doing this for TNG might seem like a lot, but there's only slightly more than twice the amount of episodes. Perhaps remastering can be farmed out to two or more different outfits, each of which would get a certain number of episodes to do?
     
  4. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    ST:TNG potential remastering

    I don't think you realize the amount of work it would take. TNG was not a cut negative show that was archived on a shelf in film cans. They edited on video and only have 480i standard definition video masters. They would need to retelecine, re-edit the show, redo all the visual effects in HD. for SEVEN SEASONS!

    please see this thread for additional info on it:
    www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/ht-sof...59966-star-trek-tng-possible-hd-versions.html

    Best-of fan collective sets maybe.
    Paramount Home Entertainment have already sold separate season DVDs and then the entire ST:TNG series DVDs packaged together. Will ST fans really be up for shelling out for this series? The most noticeable differences will be the first 2 seasons as they were mastered to 1" analog videotape in 1987-1989.
    If you look at season 3 in 1989-1990 when it was mastered to D-2 composite digital video tape it looked the same then as it does today as due to the nature of digital video tape. The image is stored exactly as it was converted from analog to digital. It doesn't matter if it was stored 5 minutes or 20 years. It plays back the same image that was recorded.
     
  5. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    Re: ST:TNG potential remastering

    NOW THERE'S AN IDEA! A few collectors sets! I would go for that. Great idea!
     
  6. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: ST:TNG potential remastering

    They had to redo all the effects for TOS, didn't they? True, that was only three seasons, but still they managed.
     
  7. Mike Farley

    Mike Farley Commodore Commodore

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    Redoing the effects work for TNG would probably be the easy part. The real monster is to go back to the original film elements and re-edit the episodes. The only complete versions of any of the TNG episodes are on SD video, which, as stated, don't even look so great on regular DVD. They'd have to dig out the original 35mm film, then find the original editing notes--if they even exist anymore--dropping in new effects as needed. Essential they would have to completely redo the post-production of every single episode. This would be a huge amount of work and a huge investment of resources. And if those editing notes don't exist then the best they could do would be to create approximations of the original episodes.
     
  8. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    TNG potential remastering

    Mike points out the reality here.
    ST:TNG was a weekly TV show. say you had a feature film that won Academy Awards the next year after it was shot. All of the stuff would be saved as it was in the case of things that were re-edited like "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut" or "Apocalypse Now: Redux".
    For Paramount to Archive the original camera negative even though it was not a cut negative show would mean they would have had to archive all of it, or at least the circled takes. Perhaps the circled takes were then cut and assembled together for archiving. Highly doubtful.
    If it were edited on a nonlinear editor the old operating systems and software versions would not be readable today. The AVID editing system was not in use in 1987 and no film edgecode was saved like it is on a feature film when it does have its negative cut and then retelecined to 2k or 4k for conforming.
    Since in 2006 it was mentioned that CBS Paramount Television did some tests of remastering to HD this show it would lead me to believe they did store the original camera negative. and attempted a HD telecine of part of a show from season 1 (originally mastered to 1" analog videotape) and maybe part of the show from season 3 or later (originally mastered to D2 composite digital video tape) along with uprezzing the CGI original effects to HD to see how they would hold up.

    Two of the oldest TV shows that had syndication for years were "I Love Lucy" and "The Twilight Zone" (1959-1964) . Both were cut negative shows and like were fairly straightforward to retelecine, dustbust, and clean up.
    'The Twilight Zone Complete Definitive Collection' mastered recently in 2006 utilising the original camera negatives in telecine to HD. That would be 7 years older than ST:TOS and in black and white but it does show what is possible when you transfer an old TV show from the original camera negative. It's on DVD but you gotta figure they will put it out on Blu-Ray in HD eventually.
     
  9. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG potential remastering

    From what I recall, those tests were said to merely involve upscaling the SD tapes to see if they could "get away with it". I'd be surprised if they met with any great success.
     
  10. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

    Get away with it?!
    I just watched TNG Episode #252 'Descent: Part I' last night on DVD on a 26" standard def. TV. It looked pretty soft and bad to me. Not just the darkly lit Borg ship but the brightly lit TNG Enterprise-D closeups on Patrick Stewart.

    There is no way they are gonna upscale the video from those masters and pass it off as HD on a Blu-Ray. TNT does that on their TNTHD channel and also stretches 4:3 standard def. content. It's one thing when a broadcaster fills time with a non-HD show but for Paramount/CBS to try to _SELL_ a product that has been sold to fans on VHS and DVD already from those videotape masters dating back to 1987.
    It will either live on DVD as seasons like ST:Voyager always will or they will start with fan collective sets first to gauge customer interest in HD Blu-Ray purchases of TNG.
    Also Blu-Ray is still a new format. It was only in January of 2008 that the format was considered THE next consumer video format as HD. In 2009 they will release most of the feature films and ST:TOS on Blu-Ray all in HD.
    If they do decide to do it that probably wouldn't be on a store shelf for 18 months. In the mean time they will release TOS seasons 2 & 3 probably in 2010.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  11. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

    This is the story I was thinking of, so obviously I misremembered - it's just talking about upscaling the effects.

    I'd love to know which episode they tested.
     
  12. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

    I always thought, and still do, that "upscaling" the effects would be impossible.

    The maximum resolution of videotape is, what, 480i? You're stuck with that. It would be no more possible to suddenly make that HD by upscaling it than it would be to make a gramophone record sound like a CD by somehow getting it to play over modern speakers. It's inherently limited by technology, or lack thereof.

    And before anyone mentions upconverting DVD players: Not the same thing. All *that* means is that you're getting the standard def DVD image to not have like 2 feet of black around all sides when viewing on an HDTV. It's NOT making the actual image into HD, or even any increase in quality at all.
     
  13. Eddie Roth

    Eddie Roth Commodore Commodore

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    It's really too bad they didn't think of HD possibilities back in the 80s/90s (But how could they?)... Once you've seen how great HD looks, you don't want to see films or TV shows any other way. And TNG being a favorite, I would totally get such a set.

    But I agree, the work that needs to go into such remastering is probably not worth the effort for Paramount/CBS these days.
     
  14. Mr. B

    Mr. B Vice Admiral Admiral

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    JMS was forward-thinking enough to shoot Babylon 5 at 16:9, although that show started in '93.
     
  15. swaaye

    swaaye Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

    I believe those machines actually use a fancy resize algorithm to scale the SD to HD resolution. You don't gain much from it, but it can be better than letting the TV scale the image (depending on what the TV itself would do). Some resize algorithms are much better than others.

    Still, it's certainly not even remotely similar to going back to the film and digitizing it at much higher resolution. You can experiment with sharpening algorithms too, which is what some HD TVs do and probably what some of these upconverting DVD players do too. You start to wander into the territory of "creating something from nothing" with magic mathematical algorithms and whether it's better or not becomes subjective for each person.

    I've been wondering what the limits of film are when it comes to digitizing. What is the scanning resolution limit of an analog source such as film? Can you go nuts and scan it at unbelievably high resolution and then drop it back down to 1080p and have a nice supersampling effect?

    Star Trek's video-for-effects heritage is a major problem. Fancy resizing of that video from 480i to 1080p isn't going to go so well compared to the film work. Also, dumping all of the model work for CGI would be a mixture of good and bad IMO because that model work is part of those series as much as anything else. On the other hand, new shots of CGI E-D would be awesome too. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  16. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fat lot of good that did. The *live action elements* were shot that way, but the whole situation with the effects...you can't really describe without using the word 'cluster'.

    Most HDTVs, such as the Pioneer Elites, will have much better upconverters than any DVD player ever could have. I bought the particular Blu-Ray player I did (a Sony) specifically because I could *disable* its upconverter for standard def DVDs - I want my TV to handle all that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  17. Mr. B

    Mr. B Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

    A 35mm frame of film is considered to have from 20 to 50 megapixels of usable information, far above and beyond 1080p.
     
  18. Ethan_Hunt_IMF

    Ethan_Hunt_IMF Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    What episodes are on this!?
     
  19. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    TNG possible remaster [technical]

     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  20. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG possible remaster [technical]

    I never saw that episode, but that looks fairly good. I'd rather they built a new one from scratch, based exactly on the six footer.
     
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