STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Mountie1988, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    So?

    From Wiki (emphasis mine):

     
  2. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    So any time a character changes his mind that's a plot hole? We're really reaching now.

    There are plenty of plot holes and lots of silliness in virtually all the Trek films. Khan taking advantage of the situation to give Kirk a fate he believes is worse than death for Kirk is not one of them.
    Khan wants revenge. That's entirely consistent throughout the film. When Khan thinks Kirk has accidentally gotten himself into a situation where he can be abandoned and forgotten, where he can get his just deserts, karma, he takes the revenge that fate has given him. Kirk plays it up, practically begging Khan to beam down and kill him, which makes Khan even more adamant that he's simply going to leave Kirk there, to not give Kirk the kind of fate appropriate to a hero, which is either victory of death, but to do to Kirk what he did to Khan's wife, which is to simply leave him.
     
  3. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    It's still a plot hole, but we've been over why. More than once.
     
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I find it perfectly consistent. Throughout the movie Khan struggles to make effective strategic decisions when confronting Kirk because he lets his emotions overwhelm his judgement. One time he pulls back when Kirk taunts him, believing that he could let Kirk die without risking another costly confrontation. (Khan doesn't know of the Genesis cave (a dead end anyway because of the protomatter) and believes he has the opportunity to hunt down Enterprise.)) The next time, he lets his rage take takeover, following Kirk into the nebula after he is taunted. It's not an issue of Khan changing his mind; it's a matter of him making two sides of his personality--one logical, one violent--canceling each other out.
     
  5. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Except when Kirk taunts him a second time, he flies right into one of the most obvious "I'm baiting you, its a trap" situations in movie history. So, it is inconsistent because he reacts in two COMPLETELY different ways to Kirk's taunts.
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    ^Am I missing something: is Khan a robot? Just because he is liable to fly into a fit of rage, overwhelming his judgement, does not mean he should do it every time and in every situation. Indeed, he shows at other points that he is willing do some cost analysis, when he leaves the Enterprise after their first encounter. Indeed, if he's being inconsistent, maybe taking the bait that last time was the real inconsistency, not fleeing after the first battle or leaving Kirk behind.
     
  7. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    no, it's a character flaw.
     
  8. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Irresolute neurosis was never an established part of Khan's bio.

    The whole sequence of events was a shark with freakin' lasers moment. And it was a plot hole.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

    Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
     
  10. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
     
  11. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And that's why Shatner's famous scream of Khan's name is made fun of. Not just for the cheesiness of it but the fact that it just makes no damn sense whatsoever.
     
  12. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Blasphemy. Khan is superior. He has no flaws. TWOK not only left a plot hole the size of Rhode Island leading to the planet's core, it was burnt on the stake by the Catholic church for canon violation.
     
  13. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah. I'm not sure how that works.

    Anyway, the Genesis device is a lot more complex, I guess, than regular weapons.

    Not necessarily. In the second case, Kirk could get away forever and not die.

    Not in Space Seed, but a lot of time has passed on that crap world. He's a changed man, clearly.

    You saying so doesn't make it so. It's a matter of interpretation.

    He can still be pissed at Khan, regardless of knowing he has a way out.
     
  14. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Completely disagree. Kirk knew he had an out but COULD NOT reveal this to Khan, thus the scream. It makes perfect sense.

    Let's play this another way:
    Khan: "Buried alive....."
    Kirk: "No worries, up there Mr. Singh! I've got Spock hiding Enterprise on the other side of Regula, fixing her up as we speak. Give me an hour and we'll be rescued!"
    Khan to Joachim: "Take us around the planet"
     
  15. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Actually you just pointed out another problem: How the hell did the Enterprise avoid Khan for an hour? Both ships would have known where the other was. Khan had the ship that wasn't shot full of holes. He couldn't look at a scanner and see what they were doing: "Oh they're circling the planetoid, we'll just pick up speed and catch up to them". Enterprise should have been fragged 5 minutes after Khan's little buried alive spiel.

    The level of incompetence (see: stupidity) evidence by Khan and his people should have made it impossible for them to get out of the Ceti Alpha star-system, much less pilot that Reliant.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Khan definitely wasn't working on all thrusters. :lol:
     
  17. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've always thought the scream was 100% warranted. Kirk had just had his ship attacked, witnessed many deaths and injuries on his ship, a close friend of his lose a relative, had to take down a load of corpses that had their throats slit, see a fellow starfleet officer kill someone with a phaser before committing suicide, and see another close friend go crazy before a rather unpleasant creature emerges from his ear. And had his own son come at him with a knife.

    Then the guy responsible for all mayhem this taunts him about it in a rather sneering fashion just to rub his nose in it.

    Enterprise not as damaged as he's letting on or not, I'd be pretty fucking pissed at this dude by now
     
  18. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Kirk was still worried about what was going to happen to the Enterprise in his absence.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    For all the flaws I find in The Wrath of Khan, I still consider it too be a great movie because I have a great time whenever I watch it. Much like Star Trek Into Darkness. :techman:
     
  20. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agreed, it's still a massively entertaining movie all these years later, as is STID