STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Gaith, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rehabilitation, huh? Another twist in their possible fate.

    You know, maybe it was by accident, but it's obvious from this thread that the vague way Khan was dealt with at the end of STID really does raise one of those "big questions" good "Star Trek" is said to have dealt with.
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I highly doubt the Augments can be fixed or rehabilitated. It's literally in their DNA to be what they are - ruthless conquerors. They can't be anything else. So the only safe and humane thing would be to either keep them frozen, or put them on an uninhabited planet where they can't threaten anyone ever again.
     
  3. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Who put them in stasis? It's my understanding they put themselves in that state as part of their escape.
     
  4. Captain Jed R.

    Captain Jed R. Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If one were to examine the morality of just sticking Khan back in his can, it might be a it off, but this is one of those things where "looking cool" and "dramatic license" outweigh what would actually occur. Unfortunately.

    Oh, and I take some exception to the idea that death and cryo-stasis can be compared, primarily on the basis that cryo-stasis can be reversed with a few button presses. Death can't, though I wish to God it could. Morally speaking, it's more like a kind of life imprisonment, except that unlike actuallife imprisonment, the prisoners won't have to live with the various problems with imprisonment, like crap food, bad guards and eventually dying of old age. Plus, they can be woken up one day. It's basically what they put themselves in for anyway.
     
  5. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The 'advanced' Feds of Picard's time had no problem disassembling Lore. I have no problem seeing a 'Vulcan-destroyed' timeline of 1 century prior to Picard doing whatever they wanted.
     
  6. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And given what Khan could do regardless of being centuries behind the curve. I don't even think it's a good idea to give them their own planet.
     
  7. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They were also still at the point where they questioned whether Data could be considered a person at all. It's easy to justify disassembling a dangerous machine.
     
  8. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No, Data had already been judged as a sentient being and with all the rights that entails.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ But it did come up again, as recently as "Measure of a Man".

    But like I said, Ceti Alpha V had absolutely no technological base. It was basically just an empty wasteland, and that was even before its neighbor exploded. There would be nothing - ever - out of which Khan COULD have built a starship.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    On what are you basing your understanding of Ceti Alpha V?

    My own, which may have been influenced by Greg Cox's novel on the subject admittedly, was that originally Ceti Alpha V was a pretty hostile planet, but not a wasteland...at least not entirely. Off the top of my head I imagine it being a rather more hospitable version of Skull Island, minus the natives.

    As I think I mentioned above, it's not that Khan and his followers couldn't have eventually developed the technology for spaceflight there, it's that they'd be starting with raw resources.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Kirk and Spock agree with you.

     
  12. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not Khan, but his descendents two or three generations down the line would have built some pretty bitchin ones.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This actually has me wondering how long it might have taken them to develop spaceflight given that they had the knowledge but lacked the developed materials.

    Makes me wonder how long it would take ordinary humans too, actually.
     
  14. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I guess has Khan had '5 times the strength' of humans it's reasonable to assume he's x5 with everything else too, so a fifth of the time? Whatever that is...
     
  15. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't know exactly how the TNG timeline went, whether Lore was disassembled before or after Data's trial, but my main point wasn't really about the exact legal status of Data. It was about the fact that 24th century humans still naturally assume that a machine is not sentient, unless and until proven otherwise.
     
  16. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Lore was disassembled by Data himself (offscreen) at the end of Descend Part 2 I think.


    Well, if it were up to me, I'd have offered Khan a deal of pleading guilty and swearing an oath of accepting the full punishment of the law in exchange for a pardon of his people as soon as a suitable colony world could be found.
    And have him record a message to them not to ever try to free/avenge him so his sacrifice remains meaningful and their freedom untouched.
    Or maybe even let them know in person.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Out of WHAT? If you took Khan's people and stuck them in the middle of a forest or a meadow, what could they possibly use to make a starship? They could make a house, but that'd be it, really.
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I dunno, normal humans managed to come pretty far by essentially being stuck in the middle of forests and meadows...
     
  19. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Yes, if you know what you are aiming for, its a lot easier to get there. How long that takes is harder to gauge but it wouldn't take forever.
     
  20. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How about handing Khan over to Kronos for some Klingon justice?