STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Opus, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^THIS.

    Face it, people just wanted clones of Luke, Leia, Han & Chewie in the prequel trilogy, and when they didn't get it, they went apeshit and claimed that Lucas had 'lost it' and a whole lot of other bullshit. Unlike Gene Roddenberry, Lucas didn't lose it, didn't believe that he was a visionary, and produced better work than Roddenberry did in the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Saying that Jar-Jar was racist when the guy who was the voice and the body was a black man and saying the the Nemoidians were racist when the accent wasn't meant to be Japanese (or any other Asian race is proof of that apeshitness in the fans who hated it.

    D. Trull said it best in his essay about how hard it is to write something like the prequel trilogy:

    Some other things that Mr. Trull said that also sum up what fans are:

    Why I Love The Phantom Meanace
     
  2. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Captain Captain

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    I think on their own they're still bad and only got so successful because Star Wars is such a popular and beloved franchise. Let's not forget that kids/families play a huge factor into the franchise's success, which might also explain why REVENGE OF THE FALLEN was such a big hit despite being regarded among many as a horrible film. I know if I was 6 years old I would have eaten up these prequels with a big grin.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How I Met Your Mother had an episode about the Star Wars prequel split, and it hit the nail on the head. The prequels are not bad by any means, you're just not part of their target group.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    It wasn't six-year old's who were buying tickets to the prequel trilogy. It was people who were six-years old when the original trilogy came out and they were pissed that Lucas didn't help them recapture their youth.

    I think that's where Abrams succeeded and Lucas stumbled. When I watch the Abrams Trek films, I feel like I'm six-years old again sitting in front of my family's floor model color TV. The prequel trilogy never gave me that warm nostalgic feeling inside.

    It'll be interesting to see Abrams take on the Star Wars franchise and if he can succeed where Lucas stumbled.
     
  5. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nostalgia bias is pretty much the lifeblood of the Star Wars franchise at this point. However I don't know that ROTJ necessarily "gets a pass." The Ewoks were more generally despised than anything else in the franchise until Jar Jar Binks came along, and ROTJ was AFAIK the least-liked of the original trilogy films. It's still better than the prequels, mostly (with the possible exception of Revenge of the Sith), but that's not saying it's all that great.

    If there was actually anyone who wanted "clones" of any of the old characters instead of just wanting good movies, I've certainly never observed them in the wild; they must have been a small cohort indeed. Watching you rant and rage at what appear to be the voices in your head is amusing, but AFAICS you still have absolutely no idea at all why other people say anything or believe anything. (Dr. Trull's speculations on what "audiences expect" or "audiences demand" are not much better.)

    Exactly. Basically the prequels trilogy was marketed to children with the idea of leveraging their parents' money. This obviously worked, in part because children aren't all that discerning. It is possible of course to market to children without your product looking like garbage to adult eyes, as Pixar (for instance) has amply demonstrated; Lucas just didn't do it.
     
  6. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The voices in my head aren't anywhere numerous as the voices in yours; please stop trying to guess the state of my mental health due to a supposition I made about fandom that anybody else would probably have also made (and may have done so already.) If you disagree with me and what I said, fine, but now you're heading into personal insults.:vulcan:
     
  7. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Anybody else" does not routinely and with maximum shrillness try to dismiss large swathes of fandom as nutcases via rather ironically nutty-sounding "suppositions" about their motives. You do. FWIW I am not really speculating on the state of your mental health, I'm sure you're as sane as any of us; I'm just pointing out how make yourself appear by constantly doing this.

    Let me give you a bit more specific example:

    ... actually, it's fallacious to say a character conception isn't racist because the guy playing it was black. It doesn't work that way. Minstrelsy and blackface were likewise produced by black entertainers like Bert Williams; that has nothing to do with whether the basic dynamic was racist, as black entertainers have been putting food on the table by selling black caricatures to whites for a long time. Jar Jar rubbed a lot of people the wrong way by being arguably just another iteration of that wrapped up in digital effects.

    The original Nemoidians of Phantom Menace were instantly recognizable to any number of critics, fans or not, as digitally-costumed Fu Manchu stereotypes out of the 1930s and 40s. The criticism doesn't come out of nowhere; if you're familiar with film and comic books from that era, the parallel is extremely obvious, whether or not it was "intended". And note that this criticism actually seemed to hit its mark: Lucas tacked away from the Fu Manchu accents for most of the Nemoidians, save those who'd already been established, in subsequent films.

    For the reasons I've just outlined, trying to dismiss the above points as "apeshitness" looks like exactly the kind of thoughtless, kneejerk reaction you claim to be criticizing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  8. The Stig

    The Stig Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The difference between ROTJ, the admittedly last-place of the OT, and the entirety of the PT is that ROTJ makes sense, has some sense of narrative and functions as a film, rather than (simply) a merchandising vehicle.

    Move your sights to Empire and all bets are off. Empire is a fantastic film, full stop. It's full of witty dialogue, character intrigue, relatable romance and genuine performances. You can't say that about any of the PT.

    They're just bad movies: they take talented actors and strip them of all their talent. We get Ewan McGregor and Samuel L. Jackson reduced to flat line-readings. The action is nonsensical and the persistent green-screen sets rob the films of the immediacy and tactileness that made the world of Star Wars so engaging. The scripts are beyond dumb and the direction is dull and lifeless.

    But the kids love em. And that's great. Kids loved the OT too. Difference is, so did their parents.
     
  9. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Captain Captain

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    Of course, it's the parents who buy those tickets. One of my coworkers went to see THE PHANTOM MENACE when it came out last year in 3D, because his son wanted to see it, even though the father didn't think it was any good.
     
  10. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Everyone can stop those right now.

    If you (general "you") have a valid point to make, it ought to be possible to do so without speculations, suppositions, insinuations, etc. concerning the mental state of any other fans or fan groups. Just don't do that.
     
  11. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But, on the other hand, that opinion is mostly from folks who grew up on The Original Trilogy (Or are heavily involved in Star Wars Fandom, rather than casual Star Wars Fans). There's a whole bunch of younger folks who grew up on The Prequel Trilogy and/or don't have the Nostalgia of growing up on The Original Trilogy when it was brand new, that love the Prequel films. Then of course, now we have kids growing up on the Clone Wars cartoons that love The Prequel Trilogy as well.

    I grew up on The Original Trilogy, and Jar Jar annoys me, and, The Pod Race seems to go on for hours, but, other than those things and the awkwardly directed Romance, I mostly get enjoyment out of The Prequels.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  12. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In point of fact, TPM was widely panned both inside and outside fandom both at the time of its initial release and on the screening of the 3D version.
     
  13. Set Harth

    Set Harth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Unless their parents were certain professional film critics.
     
  14. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I love this one a lot:

    This only proves the old saying 'The more things change, the more they stay the same.'
     
  15. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    It's curious. I find Reddit's Trek sub to be a LOT more positive about the shows and other movies than these forums, but for Into Darkness it seems to be reversed - it is generally a lot more positive here and negative there.
     

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