Starship Size Argument™ thread

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by WarpFactorZ, May 1, 2013.

  1. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I wouldn't call it "realistic", but justifiable. It's my understanding that real naval vessels are as small as possible for the requirements.

    I would've mourned the loss of such a fine design as the new 1701, but that would've been a heck of a plot twist. I'd be on board for that. :)
     
  2. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But it's not justifiable from a function point of view. Making something "bigger" because of a threat is nonsense. An adversary won't be intimidated by the size of a weapon, but rather by its effect (see: nuclear bomb delivered by one plane, vs firebombing via squadron -- which caused the Japanese emperor to surrender?).

    The ships in the Abramsverse are big for ONLY ONE reason: they wanted the shuttle bay to look like it could land 1000 troops at once. For some reason, the transporter is no longer the favored method of getting from land to ship.

    So, one is free to "justify" why the ships are big all they want. But in the end, it came down to one person saying "Hey, wouldn't it be fucking cool if there were, like, 20 -- no, 30 fucking shuttles parked at once?!!!" (homage to the Lindelof interview posted elsewhere).

    I'm reminded of the scene in Weird Science where the jocks force Gary and Wyatt to make them a woman, and insist on the breasts being incomprehensibly large -- "BIGGER! BIGGER! BIGGER!". I wish I could find it on You Tube, but alas.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    If I point a rocket launcher at you, it will be more intimidating than a handgun, even if it so happens that it's a replica.

    I know that. We were discussing the in-universe reasons.

    What I meant is that the explanation is not logical in real life but makes a modicrum of sense in movie logic.
     
  4. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think my comparison was a little more apt than yours. Besides, you should re-watch a key scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark if you want to talk "looking intimidating"....

    No, we're fan-wanking up reasons for why the ships are big, based on the production staff's (probably cocaine-fueled) Hollywood dream of massive starships housing a million shuttles sitting on the head of a pin.

    It doesn't make any logical sense. If I was worried about my fleet encountering a 5-mile long space octopus from the future with gnarly, secondary-booster-spiked torpedoes, I would make the ships heavily armed, smaller and more maneuverable. That way, less people would be endangered, and they'd be more likely to get away. Why would I put 1000+ people in a giant starship (read: broadside of a barn, vis-a-vis torpedoes) as a sitting duck?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  5. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I knew I should have said "flamethrower".

    Yeah, that's the whole point of the discussion.

    That was uncalled for and juvenile.

    Look at it this way: you either fly a large number of big shuttles to the space station, then have people walk to the Enterprise, or use the transporters in a completely non-epic fashion, skipping the TMP-inspired tour of the ship's exterior, OR you make sure those shuttles can fit.

    We are NOT discussing the real world reasons, here.

    Of course it does. You just don't like it. That's fine.
     
  6. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hardly. You obviously aren't familiar with Hollywood.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Since we don't know the exact role of the Dreadnaught-class, I'd say it premature to say its too big.

    If its a troop transport, it may need to carry tens of thousands of troops at a time. Your not going to hold a planet with a thousand.
     
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    There is nothing about the decision to make the Enterprise bigger that requires the use of drugs, not would the use of drugs somehow make it more probable. It was just an attack on the writers without any evidence to back it up.
     
  9. billcosby

    billcosby Commodore Commodore

    Kids: Just Say No to Starship Enlargement!
     
  10. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Apparently you didn't read the interview with Lindelof.
     
  11. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Ok this conversation can only end badly. Let's just say all Hollywood writers who produce stuff you don't like are drug addicts and leave it at that.
     
  12. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Whoa whoa whoa! No one said anything about "drug addict." You CLEARLY don't get Hollywood. I agree: no point in continuing this conversation.
     
  13. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A common historical occurrence.

    From the link:
    Summary: The Japanese and the Italians ignored arms control treaties that otherwise would have limited the size of warship construction. The Americans responded by designing a larger and therefore more powerful aircraft carrier, which they later built when war broke out with Japan.

    Larger ships can have more powerful engines, better weapons and better equipment. The enlarged Enterprise seems to have all of the above.

    Which maybe reflects the in-universe reason for the enlargement: Starfleet realized that evacuating the entire crew of a ship with a transporter is a seriously bad idea if you don't have a safe place to beam them TO, which is pretty much always the case in deep space. Escape pods aren't much better, especially if you're up against something like the Narada that is very interested in taking (and murdering) prisoners. Your ship needs enough shuttles to evacuate the entire crew, and it also needs shuttles large enough and powerful enough that the crew can get out of danger and fly to safety on their own.

    Moreover, the sheer size of the Narada is suggestive of a ship that could carry not just immense firepower, but whole legions of Romulan shocktroops and all sorts of other nastiness (USS Vengeance was clearly designed along this philosophy, hence the vast amount of empty space to store said nastiness). Making the Enterprise bigger would allow it to be useful as an in-a-pinch troop transport to combat the zerg rush of Romulan troopers if they ever decided to invade.

    To which the proper answer is: "Why, yes. Yes it would."
     
  14. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Instead of making vague allusions, and other vague claims of being knowledgeable on the subject, why don't you, you know, show some evidence ?
     
  15. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My evidence is: Argo.
     
  16. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Aha. And the story in Argo was set when?
     
  17. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Yep, the problem must be with them, and not the guy who takes fictional spaceship sizes so seriously (and argues his point of view so poorly and without solid evidence) that he has to resort to making baseless accusations of cocaine use against the people who came up with it. Why is this so important to you?
     
  18. Gonzo

    Gonzo Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    WarpfactorZ cant handle the size of the NuEnterprise and so he hijacks every conversation on the board and starts spouting rubbish.

    There were more than a few who were not convinced on the size of the ships when Star Trek (2009) was released, once the sizes were confirmed by the designers they let it go, WarpfactorZ cant seem to do that.

    He thinks that if he whinges and whines enough everyone will agree with him and reality will change accordingly.

    If you ask me I think he is just trolling the board now.
     
  19. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    It was a rhetorical question. Please don't accuse anyone of trolling and watch the personal comments.
     
  20. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    They upscaled it to make it look bigger but it was a bad idea because it doesnt have enough windows.