Starship of the Federation President

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Dingo, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Some do. Others have the position of municipal council president be popularly elected along with the other municipal councillors. Just depends on the municipality.

    Yes, but being the presiding officer of a legislature is a very different thing from being the executive of an entire sovereign state.

    It is not impossible that the Federation President is elected by the Council, but you don't usually hear the term "run for" used in the contexts of such offices. "Run for" carries connotations of making campaign stops to raise one's support among the general population.

    It is, however, possible that the elections are like those of the Republic of South Africa, in which it is understood that the legislature will not elect as head of government a candidate who is not supported by a majority of the populace.

    ETA: There is, however, no canonical reference whatsoever to the Federation President being elected by the Council, only to him being "democratically elected." I find it highly implausible to imagine they meant indirectly elected. There is also no canonical evidence that the Federation President routinely serves as the presiding officer of the Federation Council, though he seemed to be doing so in the exceptional circumstances that constituted Kirk's court-martial in TVH.

    The novels have firmly established the Federation President to be popularly elected, and that the Federation President does routinely serve as the Council's presiding officer. End edit.

    Of course, as the Republic of South Africa proves, having a legislatively-elected head of state and head of government does not mean that it's an alliance rather than a sovereign state. :)
     
  2. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    But with Greece being a member of the eurozone countries it has no currecny of it's own to devalue. And possibly one of the reasons for the economic crisis in the Eurozone is that monetary union really needs full political union, harmonisation of pay rates etc...

    The EU has many issues one of which is perhaps a disconnect between the politicans and the electorate, simply put the EU hasn't done a very good job of selling itself. The EU also has it's own elected Parliament with elections for it this year.

    I think saying that the EU has become a tool of German Hegemony is going to far, sure Germany has a large influence within in the EU and is the largest economy within the EU, but France has influence as well. The UK does have some influence as well but perhaps not as much as it could have perhaps in part to the perception which is not unfounded that the UK is one of the more Eurosceptic countires. But that isn't always a bad thing in a democracy were opponents of a policy or polices have their say. I don't think many countries within the EU want the UK to withdraw from it, so if the question is if the UK's more eurosceptical viewpoint is such a thorn in their side why do that want the UK to remain within it, would it not be better for them for them if the UK left? Or does the UK bring something to the table? Also eurosceptisim is not found just within the EU other nations have segments of their population that are eurosceptical. And in recent years several times when EU treaties have been put before a national populance i.e France they have been rejected. What does that say?

    I'm not anti-EU but I would rather see what we orignally signed up for which was a free-trade zone. If the nation states of the EU want to move towards a United Federation of Europe or whatever they want to call it. There is one simply way to end the debate. Simply hold national referrudums in each of the EU country with a question like

    Should the EU become a Federation? or similar.

    Let the electorate decide the direction they want to go. I might not agree with everything a party stands for when I cast my vote for them, just that on balance I agree with them on more things than others. If an election/vote goes against my own viewpoint well that's demoracy at work. I also don't support withdrawl from the EU but I think it needs reform.


    In the case of the UK anyone born after around 1963 ( thats two gernerations) has never had a diirect vote on any EU treaty. That's not good for democracy

    But as I said I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the EU.
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Debatable.

    All innocent life yes, all life again debatable.

    Not alway a option in real life.

    If someone is attacking you? Your family, your nation, your allies?

    When circumstance don't allow them to be "subdued," then what?

    :)
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes.

    I certainly never said they were, however if the 18th century Congress choose (for whatever reason) to grant them that particular "job title" I sure them could have.

    If they wanted to official call him the grand poobah they could have.

    Yes.

    Jaresh-Inyo would be the Federation Council's presiding officer, and he might (or might not) be considered the Federation's governing body's head of government.

    He wouldn't be the head of state since of course the Federation isn't a "state."

    As the Council's presiding officer he apparently does carries the title of "president of the united federation of planets" (how charming). He might also be considered "the chief of the (whatever) party," presiding officers automatically being the head of their ideological party within the Council.

    It would be easy to see him being referred to as "the chief executive of the Federation Council" given his senior managerial responsibilities.


    :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  5. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sometimes it may be necessary to kill, yes. Self-defense is a right. But I'd prefer not to kill if I don't have to. And it doesn't mean the other person deserves to die - it means I deserve to live. There is a difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  6. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    How can you say that when Justin Beiber is still around?
     
  7. varek

    varek Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree. However, it seems that the Enterprise (now the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E) is often considered the flagship of the Federation, both symbolically and often actually.

    Earlier, though, I think Starfleet Command had envisioned the Excelsior-class ship would be the diplomatic ship of choice, so one of this class would probably have been the UFP President's flagship.

    But, with the retirement of most Excelsior-class ships, that question is open for discussion.

    What about a Prometheus-class ship?
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't believe the E-E was ever actually (or even "considered") the Flagship of the Federation.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  9. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    Edit: Nevermind. My suggestion was already mentioned back in post #7, and its creator is involved in the conversation. :blush:
     
  10. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    JFK even wanted accessibility. Having the bubble top down seems mad today, but it was a calculated risk, and I might have done the same thing. You can't stay in that car all day, anyway.

    A Secret Service success story--what with Squeaky Fromme--to me was far worse. They jerked Gerald Ford back like a little three-year old child. You do not want your Commander-In-Chief to look like that. Putin would have slapped the gun out of her hand.
     
  11. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    :)
    I appreciate the vote.
    :)
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One of the problems with a leader possessing heavy security might be the psychological effect of that level of protect on the leader themselves.

    The security can place the leader in a bubble of isolation and fear. Everywhere he goes outside of the armored buildings where he lives and works, he is surrounded by armed personnel, move from place to place in armored transports.

    The result could be the leader growing scared of the people he serves.

    It might also engender in the leader a dangerous false perception that they are personally special, more important, and even better than those those whom they work for and are employed by.

    The office they hold is special, personally they are not.

    :)
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ There is the risk of that, yes. But even in our own real world, it doesn't change the fact that there are some really sick people out there who want to kill anyone in positions of leadership or power. These must be accounted for and dealt with.

    Sometimes, security may be overly cautious, and it may indeed have some effect on those it's protecting. But that doesn't change the fact that it is still needed.

    Or, to put it another way: The danger of having too much security is much less than the danger of not having enough of it.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, I very much doubt that. Security, after all, is violence, and increasing it doesn't really make the world a safer place.

    The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really. A democracy can afford to lose him or her; indeed, the very idea behind that form of government is that "the people" get to fire him or her if unsatisfied with the work. If it is made more difficult to get rid of the Boss, then the urge to do so will only escalate, and so will the means.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.

    You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Bullshit. You get security by applying violence or threatening with it; there isn't an alternate approach. Except perhaps bribery, but that never works for long.

    Which just goes to show that he or she isn't important enough to warrant a private army for clinging to power. Clinging to life is fine and well, but it's important for the difference to be very visible...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps. But in the end, security is a response to violence. If humans weren't such a brutal and violent species, there'd be no need for security forces of any kind.

    Order won't spontaneously arise. It must be maintained. The opposite of order is chaos.

    The Secret Service is not a "private army." A few plainclothes security officers do not an army make.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    And too much order is tyranny. Both ends mean excesses in violence, so the middle is to be sought.

    ...But a Galaxy class starship for the UFP President is plenty enough to meet the criterion.

    I wonder whether the UFP President really has Men in Black around him or her? It would be a rather nifty alternative to simply have him or her wear a forcefield belt, somewhat more potent than the TAS ones that couldn't stop phasers; random rioters couldn't touch the Prez, but the protection wouldn't be excessive or call for escalation. Essentially, it would be an invisible armored limo, a soft tool for good PR and adequate protection. (MIB to catch the fool who nevertheless takes a shot at the Prez would be optional. Regular law enforcement ought to be up to the task in the Trek environment...)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As I understand it the leader of Iceland (president, PM, whatever) has no security and lives in a medium sized house in a nice neighborhood. The General Secretary of the UN only occasionally has a moderate size security detail. The Federation President is probably more like the General Secretary of the UN and less the President of a large country.

    If the President isn't the "embodiment of the Federation" and is instead simply the current and very temporary leader of the governing body, then killing or wounding him wouldn't be seen as much of a profound act or political statement. He wouldn't really be in all that much danger, because he is little more than a faceless bureaucrat.

    Many of the peoples of the Member Worlds might not even know who he is. How many people in Europe could name the current head of the EU without looking it up? Or the UN?

    Why kill him?

    Occasional running them out of town, covered in tar and feathers, could only be a good thing for a free society.

    :)
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the novels, it's explained that the President used to be protected by Starfleet Security, but now a civilian Federation organization (the Protection Detail) is used instead.
     

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