Starfleet Procurement Policy Draft

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Nob Akimoto, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yeah. And I just thought, if they hadn't diverted shield power to the weapons, the bug ship would have impacted on the shields and the Odyssey may have survived.


    At first, I wanted to reply with what I said earlier, that the ship's hull has such a bad warp field geometry that she has to pump all energy there is into the SIF to hold her together. And that still may be a possibility.
    But, if I remember correctly, everytime the energy signature was a problem, they were not flying with warp speed but even standing still. Hmm ...

    Maybe the warp core itself is the problem, in that with its four matter/antimatter feed lines it puts out an extraordinary amount of energy only to stay activated.
     
  2. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    Another possibility is that Defiant's warp core comfortably exceeds the output of the Romulan ships designed to operate under the particular model of cloak they were given. Which either means the Romulans gave them a really crappy cloak, or the Federation lied through their teeth when describing Defiant's capabilities.
     
  3. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yeah. It could then be, as I said, the "idle" power output that is already to high. Or the ships systems need too much energy even when the ship does nothing, so that the warp core always must output that much power.
     
  4. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    In "Breads and Circuses" the SS Beagle had a Class 4 stardrive. Not much to go on other than an increasing class number? :)

    Is there anything that can connect the dots? If it's a power measurement then Voyager's Class 9 drive would likely be greater than a Galaxy-class but I suspect it is not. Defiant's Class 7 is lower than Voyager's Class 9 but have we seen how an Intrepid-class would do against DS9 Klingons or Jem'hedar ships?
     
  5. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    We never really see a comparative basis from which to judge the various "class" designations for warp drives. We do know that the Intrepid class Bellerophon was used by Admiral Ross as his flagship, but that doesn't really tell us whether it was more capable than Defiant or if it was a combination of factors that made him use it like speed or computer systems.

    So the class designations seem to give us a bit of a loss when thinking about them.
     
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks for explaining your views on how TNG-tech would be applied to the older ball-turret phasers; after thinking it through some more, I do think this is the best explanation for what we've seen.

    The notion of phaser banks vs. phaser emitters is a problematic one. Here's a crazy idea: what if there's something special about phaser power? What if the energy that powers the phasers is drawn off the main power grid, and then converted and stored in the ship's actual phaser banks, which are basically phaser "batteries" (in the electrical sense.) The energy has to be pre-phased or something to charge the phaser banks, but can be de-phased and re-routed back into the main power systems in a pinch. Then, the energy is phased again as it is passed through the emitters. As crazy as it sounds, this might solve a few of the problems we've seen. It might even explain those phaser power cells from DS9.

    Perhaps the difference with the "fed off the warp drive" phasers from TMP was that energy was converted on-the-fly for phaser use, possibly in an attempt to not "waste" energy sitting in storage batteries. It makes me wonder if all ball-and-turret phasers worked this way, or if it was just a dubious flirtation on the refit, not carried over to other ships.

    Slight tangent, what do you make of the "megaphasers" on the Miranda? I had contemplated at one point making the things on the Excelsior's interhull the same thing, especially considering how close they are to the intermix chamber.
     
  7. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    By TWoK they're able to power phasers with auxiliary power, so I'd imagine that direct fed phasers was a brief flirtation. I went with rechargeable power cells in each emplacement because I thought that might let them work with reserve power, but I'm not sure what I think.

    The assumption that underlies all of the phaser explanation is that phaser power is actually somewhat special. It takes the special prefire chambers to convert whatever power source's energy into rapid nadions and then fire them. Hence having a big number of chambers is useful.

    As for "megaphasers" I've always been a bit dubious on their existence. Reliant's phasers didn't seem all that "mega" to me when firing on Enterprise (in fact, Enterprise's main phasers seemed more powerful) so I'm not really sure if they're as powerful as people suggest. One idea is that they might actually be fed directly from warp reactors or even the impulse engines, so have a different power structure than the primary hull phasers, making them more effective in that regard. Either way, I think it's safe to discard them as being substantially more powerful than a typical phaser emplacement.

    Now, I toss that completely out the window by making the 24th century versions of Miranda fit those emplacements with Defiant style pulse phasers (which seems to me, to be a pretty reasonable assumption).

    For Lakota my assumption would have been that the phaser "arrays" underneath her saucer were surreptitiously upgraded from the standard Type VIIIs to either Type IX's or Type X prefire chambers, allowing them to have a higher overall output compared to a standard Excelsior.
     
  8. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Recently, I tried to find an explanation for the phaser bank issue.
    My thinking so far is that there are two energy distribution networks in the ship. A low-power network for simple stuff like computer consoles, doors, light and so on, and a high-power network for phasers, shield generators, the computer core and the like.
    Both networks would not transport highly energetic plasma (warp plasma) but only relatively low-powered plasma, because it's only a transport medium for electricity and it wouldn't be safe enough to circulate warp plasma through the whole ship.

    In TOS, the phaser banks would siphon some plasma off the high power network and use the electical energy (also taken from the network, not the plasma siphoned off of it) to charge the plasma to a warp plasma level. This is then fired through the phaser emitter crystals and part of the plasma particles are converted to nadions (the plasma charges the crystal and starts some kind of exotic reaction in it which then gives off the nadions or modifies the plasma around it).

    By TMP, the plasma conduits are then safe enough to carry highly energetic warp plasma through the ships high-power network (which also still carries electricity), enabling the phasers to directly fire this plasma without the need to charge it anymore.

    And by TWOK, they added the charging function back to the phasers as a backup, if warp power fails.
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    About Reliant's rollbar phasers... I think they were just standard ones since the model shows regular ball turret phasers on the rollbar. YMMV.

    Just to add more about how phasers work (at least on the Defiant) in "Starship Down":
    STEVENS: The phasers are out of the question. The emitters are completely fused.
    MUNIZ: But the phaser generator's working fine.
    STEVENS: The deflector array.
    MUNIZ: With a few modifications, we could use it as a phaser emitter.
    STEVENS: It might not be what you had in mind, sir.
    MUNIZ: And there is one problem. It will overload after the first shot.
    WORF: I only need one shot. How long will it take you to make the modifications?
    MUNIZ: Twenty minutes?
    STEVENS: Ten if we can bypass the safeties.
    WORF: Proceed.
    STEVENS: I think we should route the generator output through the secondary power grid.
    MUNIZ: We'll have to recalibrate the ODN manifold.
    STEVENS: That'll overload the whole system. What a mess.
    MUNIZ: We'll worry about that tomorrow.

    In "For the Uniform" the crew called out "phaser banks 1 and 2".

    And in "Defiant" we find out they're also running the phaser power directly off the (presumably warp) plasma conduit of the ship.
    RIKER: Running the plasma conduit through the primary phaser coupling has almost doubled your phaser power. Doesn't that cut into your warp drive efficiency?

    So taking a stab at the power flow on the Defiant:

    Warp Core > Warp Plasma Conduit > Primary Phaser Power Coupling > Phaser Generator > Phaser Bank(s) > Phaser Emitter(s)

    For the TOS Enterprise:

    Warp Power + Aux Power + Any Power > Energizers > Phaser Bank(s) > Phaser Emitter(s)

    TMP Enterprise:

    Warp Power > Phaser Bank(s) > Phaser Emitter(s)

    TWOK Enterprise:

    Warp Power + Aux Power + Any Power > Energizers > Phaser Bank(s) > Phaser Emitter(s)

    TNG Enterprise-D:

    Warp Power + Aux Power + Any Power > EPS > Phaser Bank(s) > Phaser Emitter(s)

    Or something like that :)
     
  10. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    You know what's interesting? Both the Defiant and the TMP Enterprise had their phasers fed directly by the warp core, and both (+ the Reliant, maybe all TMP era ships) had pulse phasers (or "pulse-ish" in the case of the TMP ships).
    Although we didn't see the Enterprise fire her phasers in TMP and by TWOK they were different again. But as I said, maybe the charging function was added again as a backup.

    EDIT: Or, the TMP phasers were an experiment to increase their power output that didn't work well (maybe because it was still too dangerous to have high energy warp plasma circulate though the whole ship), so by TWOK, the ships were outfitted with the old TOS energy distribution network again and the "pulse phasers" were developed, which utilized the old TOS charging mechanism again but were stronger because the pulsed discharge dealt additional explosive damage to the target.
    By DS9 then, on the Defiant, the direct warp energy supply to the phasers worked and was also combined with the stronger pulse phasers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  11. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    Next section.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  12. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    So question. Where are some potentially other good places to post this stuff?
     
  13. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

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    I think the TMP phaser experiment failing is a pretty good one. As for "pulse"-ish phasers as in burst fire weapons rather than continual beams, I'm not so sure on this one. Yes, we see phasers being able to do weird things like "proximity" bursts in TOS, along with the pew pew pew phasers in TWOK, but do we really see much phaser use after that? It seems like the primary weapons used in movie ships turns into torpedoes afterwards.

    For the Defiant phasers, I think the assumption is more that they're meant to be difficult to shrug off with shield modulation. We saw in "Q, Who" that the array phasers could eat HUGE chunks (like 3-4 GCS worth of material) out of the Borg Cube, but once the Borg adapted the phasers didn't do much. So I'd imagine the priority for Starfleet would be phasers that can punch through (in whatever way) of Borg shielding. Like in FC, Defiant's phasers don't do a lot of damage, but they seem to consistently be punching through the cube's shields.
     
  14. Unwrapped

    Unwrapped Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    The DS9 TM's section on the Defiant actually describes the pulse phasers operating a principle kind of like this - they're designed to let the charge build up for a few seconds in the emitter chamber before being released, resulted in the pulsed effect compared to a standard beam. This creates more raw damage on impact, but at the cost of a shorter effective range because the pulse disperses quicker than a beam does.

    Going from the two main sources I know of for designs mounting megaphasers (Mastercom and Jackill), my general impression is that they're a heavier model of phaser than the bank-mounted units and are often employed either to give heavier punch in place of torpedoes (as on Mastercom's Daran class fast frigates) or to supplement conventional weapons for tactical purposes (as on Jackill's Hellion class heavy destroyers).
     
  15. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Fine work on the Klingon summary, Nob. I enjoyed that you explained the name oddities from "Rascals" with a bit of gymnastics. A tad contorty, but not too bad. I generally agree with the assumptions and assertions you've made about the Klingons, and the idea of the ships being designed at a large scale and then scaled down as needed helps make me not completely barf at the upscaled birds-of-prey.

    I like it!

    Good question. I'd kind of like to post some of my Excelsior stuff for more feedback, too.

    Generally agreed.

    Huh. I need to go re-read that. :rommie:

    Going from the two main sources I know of for designs mounting megaphasers (Mastercom and Jackill), my general impression is that they're a heavier model of phaser than the bank-mounted units and are often employed either to give heavier punch in place of torpedoes (as on Mastercom's Daran class fast frigates) or to supplement conventional weapons for tactical purposes (as on Jackill's Hellion class heavy destroyers).[/QUOTE]

    Your point about heavier model phasers in place of torpedo makes me think again of the TOS "proximity" phasers and of the supposed energetic non-physical nature of torpedoes during TOS. I'm not sure I believe in the latter, but it does kind ofeel like the former might be related to pulse phasers.
     
  16. Saturn0660

    Saturn0660 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd go with that. In fact if i remember right. In TWOK there is even a scene when they goto "yellow" alert they are playing with controls and such. and one of them even says "warp power trans"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LaVIIoRKBlk#t=133
    2:12 in.
    I could only guess that it's going into some kind of capacitor. I would also guess it was charged enough that Scotty was able it get a discharge only using the batteries.
     
  17. Workbee

    Workbee Commander Red Shirt

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    Actually, there is evidence that in TWOK, phasers are still channeled through the warp engines. After Kirk uses the prefix code to retaliate on Reliant, we have this exchange:

    Khan: Why can't you [fire]?

    Joachim: Because they damaged the photon control and the warp drive.

    Photon control -- I get that that means torpedoes won't work. But based on this report, Reliant's phasers should still work unless they are somehow linked to the warp drive. Like how Enterprise's were in TMP.
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd be inclined to agree with you there - Joachim was basically saying "We can't fire photons because of x, and we can't fire phasers because of y. The only option is retreat."

    Going back a post,


    Great find there. Interesting how "warp pwr" and the other "ready" indicator are on separate lines. It's almost like the capacitor element's readiness is indicated by the green light and the power flow isn't turned on until the phasers are armed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  19. Saturn0660

    Saturn0660 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Indeed, i'll even on one farther.

    I'd like say thats the reason Reliant couldn't fire. Damage to the warp drive. AKA the Phaser Cap was no longer getting it's charge.
    They didn't have a resourceful Scotty on board who was able to do whatever it took to get those quick shots out. Likely totally draining the cap in the process.
     
  20. Egger

    Egger Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yeah, and for the Enterprise I'd say they didn't have the opportunity to charge their phasers with warp power before Khan disabled their energizers, then Scotty made it possible to slowly (and it did take a while if I remember correctly) charge the phasers with battery power for a few low-powered shots.