Starfleet Command Insignia

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by DakotaSmith, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    If Commodore Wesley is the task force commander, then the starship's captain is still on duty, but where would Commodore Wesley command from? There's no obvious place for a flag officer to command anything from except the center chair. I suppose that as ranking officer of the exercise, the Lexington's skipper had to give up his seat to Wesley. Maybe the captain was down in auxiliary control, then, watching over his own ship while the bridge was being used to coordinate the task force command?
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    My question would be this: if Wesley is the captain of the Lexington, why didn't they outfit it with the M-5 while waiting for the Enterprise to arrive for the war games? Originally, we don't see any starships at the starbase (which was changed in the remastered version).

    I think Wesley was, at that point, a desk officer likely in charge of the overall development and testing of M-5. The complete and utter failure of the project is likely why he was a civilian in TAS.
     
  3. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I recommend to take a look at post # 65 and my suggestions.
    Unless these, too, fall under the category of heresy and merit my persecution by the Holy Inquisition of the Church of Constitution.

    Bob
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    No one's against suggestions to fill in the gaps. It only irks people when a poster digs in on one explanation and acts like everyone else is idiots for daring to think differently.
     
  5. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Nah, there's no heresy. But changing the insignia every few years to honor a certain ship? I don't think so. Besides being a PITA, it seems like a real morale killer. And who decides who's most deserving? Imagine if the US Army at the end of WW2 said, "OK, we've decided the 101st Airborne Division was the top division in the war. Everybody will get rid of their old patch and wear the 101st AB patch for the next five years." Too bad, Big Red One! Nice try, 82nd Airborne! Maybe next time, Spearhead!

    I think it would be more negative than positive.

    Justin
     
  6. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Concur. I always thought that idea was ridiculous.
     
  7. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    "Ridiculous" like in the Lexington's actual captain can't handle a simulator-tested war game excercise and needed to relinquish command to Commodore Wesley? Not exactly, what I'd call a morale booster for the Lexington's crew seeing their captain being pushed aside for a trivial excercise...

    @ BillJ

    If you seriously want to uphold your accusation that I "act like everyone else is idiots for daring to think differently" you better come up with some evidence, especially since the amount of remarks and ridicule at my expense suggest the opposite is true.

    Just because I offer different interpretations and suggestions and thus apparently don't agree with the "moral majority" doesn't mean I think everyone else is an idiot.
    Obviously there is a difference how we interpret canon and draw conclusion from the hints or evidence at hand.

    Bob
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    This. :techman:

     
  9. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    We don't know what happened to the captain of the Lexington, if anything. I don't believe I've said what I think happened to him. For all we know, he was retiring, got promoted, was KIA, went insane, etc., etc.

    And let's take a good look at the teaser to The Ultimate Computer. Kirk and Spock were both surprised to have Wesley beam aboard. If the Lexington was Bob's ship, where was she? Certainly not in scanning range of the space station!

    What's ridiculous is that the crew of the Enterprise were Starfleet's very Mary Sues, the lot of them. Sure, we identify with them because they are the main characters, but at some point, the only-ship-in-the-quadrant trope became ridiculous. If that's the way it really was, then everyone else could have just stayed home, except when they're needed to stand in front of a phaser.
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    You got a point, apparently Lexington was nowwhere near the space station (unless it's a bigger one than K-7 but with similar proportions and capable to hold a ship inside, though I don't like this idea).

    But Wesley could have used a warp shuttlecraft, leaving the ship with the first officer, to proceed to Commodore Enright's station to personally oversee Dr. Daystrom's final M-5 preparations.

    Bob
     
  11. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Since when are shuttles faster than starships?
     
  12. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Or Commodore Wesley was in charge of the war games exercise and chose the Lexington as his flag-ship. The Lexington's CO was still on board and in command of the ship, but Wesley commanded the task-force from the Lexington's bridge.

    And yes, the idea of switching insignias every few years is silly at best. One doesn't need to have an alternate theory to have an opinion on your theory.
     
  13. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    :confused: But they did switch insignias every few years. If you think that's silly at best, then your criticism applies to Gene Roddenberry's and Nicholas Meyer's choices.

    Obviously, Starfleet's crest and symbol is the (mylar coated) arrowhead we've seen in many subspace video transmissions, courtrooms and on the hull of Starfleet vessels like the Enterprise or shuttlecraft (since the one in "Metamorphosis" was obviously powered by antimatter, it appears it had warp drive capability, IMHO).

    Apparently, for the uniforms it's different. The receptionist in Commodore Mendez' starbase office (still) wears a delta insignia very similar to that of the Enterprise, in contrast to the flower insignia that's already around.

    By the time of TMP the whole thing has changed again. All Starfleet personnel (e.g. Starfleet Admiral Kirk) now wears the delta overlapping a circle.
    By the time of TWOK, 15 years after "Space Seed", the Starfleet insignia (e.g. Starship Reliant) has changed again. Now the delta is overlapping a rectangular shape.

    And what's so silly of honoring the accomplishments of a particular starship (or two from TMP on) by adopting its insignia for the whole fleet?

    The Enterprise is by Gene Roddenberry's definition (whether you like it or not) foremost a vessel of scientific exploration.

    In our world we honor scientific achievements with the nobel prize, so I'm unable to see what's wrong doing something similar in the future (should we ask the nobel committee to stop this price as it discourages other scientists who didn't make it?).

    Alternately, if you regard it from a military point of view, adopting a starship (insignia) that has impressed / defeated Federation adversaries for the whole fleet, can have a strong psychological effect on such adversaries. They encounter another Federation starship but the insignia they see on their communication screens has a clear message: Don't underestimate us, we are of the same breed as the Starfleet officers you previously encountered (considering the humiliation the Romulans suffered from the Enterprise, adopting the "NCC-1701" for the Enterprise-D had a nice touch to it).

    Bob
     
  14. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it's certainly something that you can do only once. As soon as every starship has the same insignia, the pattern reaches its fixed point. :lol:
     
  15. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    If you find fault with how they do things in the 23rd Century (command bridge exposed on top of vessel, anyone?) I'm not the one to bring such matters forward to, that used to be Dick Arnold's department. ;)

    I'm mostly interested in drawing accurate (if possible: logical) conclusions from observable and - if available - known production facts as long as the latter don't contradict the visual material.

    Regarding this particular debate, I'd like to add the starbase club scene from "Court-Martial".

    As mentioned earlier, producer Bob Justman wanted to keep the delta insignia for all Starfleet vessels and wasn't too happy, when he found out that individual starship insignias had been created (e.g. Constellation and Exeter).

    Clearly a changed premise within TOS, but that scene from "Court-Martial" requires "in-universe" explanation / interpretation, IMHO.

    Explanation A: All Starfleet personnel carried the delta insignia prior to providing each starship with an individual insignia.
    Question: Then why didn't the Enterprise get an individual insignia, but got stuck with the general insignia?

    Explanation B: Only Starfleet personnel (exception merchant marine) that does not belong to the elite starships wears the delta
    Question: Then why does the Enterprise personnel wear the delta as it belongs to a starship?

    Explanation C: Because of the Enterprise's previous accomplishments (Captain Pike?) Starfleet adopted the delta for all non-starship personnel for a certain amount of time.
    Question: None
    (could also help to explain the obvious hostility of Kirk's former academy classmates. Not only did they not get the job of starship captain, but also have to wear the delta insignia of Kirk's ship. Apparently they look forward to Kirk's fall with Schadenfreude: :rofl: :lol: :guffaw:- strange, somehow reminds me of something...)

    I don't claim to have all the answers, and I'm always open-minded to listen to alternate theories but reserve the right to examine these with the same scrutiny as mine are examined. :vulcan:

    Bob
     
  16. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Different fans have different sensibilities when it comes to how much weight they place on canon.

    Some seem to get off on trying to make it all fit together, as if it's historical documents. ;)

    To me, canon comes first, but not all canon gets elevated to my special place of things that I enjoy and revisit. I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that canon fits together into a consistent picture; it's fraught with production mistakes, contradictions, false starts, revisions, and things that shouldn't have been included in the first place.

    There are whole episodes that I could comfortably go the rest of my life without ever seeing or even thinking about again (only slight exaggeration for effect on the latter part, there). I'm looking at you, Miri and Turnabout Intruder.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    For me, the story comes first then continuity within the franchise. I don't care if they alter what has been done before as long as the story itself is worth it.
     
  18. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Well, yeah. Quoting my words out of context like that, you'd think I was disagreeing.

    Rather than addressing that point, in context I meant two particular things.

    First, the process of watching an episode begins first with being exposed to canon. From there, I decide whether I like it enough to revisit it, or whether it goes into something like an intellectual garbage can.

    Second, either way, like it or hate it, canon is canon, that can never be erased, only piled on top of.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I wasn't really disagreeing with you just making a statement of how I prioritize things. I edited the post down simply because when I read someone's reply I hate having to scroll through complete posts that I've already read. :techman:
     
  20. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    OK, thanks for the clarification.

    And I totally agree that story is a higher priority. Additionally, many of the best stories ignore the previous reality and replace it with their own.