Starfleet Command Insignia

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by DakotaSmith, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Navigator_NCC2120

    Navigator_NCC2120 Captain Captain

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    True, that unnamed space station (which originally looked like the K-7 Space Station model) may have been considered a starbase too.

    Excerpt below is from Memory-Alpha:
    (Here is the link --> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starbase )
    I don't know where Memory-Alpha got that information but I remember reading it somewhere years ago.


    Navigator, NCC-2120 USS Entente
    /\
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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  3. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    I'm pretty sure the patches shown all relate to the type of unit, ship or base the individual was assigned to, and rank plays no role. I have no idea why Commodore Wesley wears a Starfleet patch... all I can figure is that it was somehow intended to indicate he wasn't the Lexington's permanent captain.

    I originally figured GR directed the creation of unique patches for the Constellation and Exeter; after all, he once told the production team that each area (set) had to have its own unique sound. The Justman memo of 12/18/67 blows that theory out of the water though.... BTW, how positive are we that this memo is authentic?

    That said, the only other explaination I can imagine is that Bill Theiss somehow came down with the idea that each starship had its own insignia--remember, there were only 12 of them, so I suppose you could say each was "special," just like we consider aircraft carriers so today--and when appearently nobody corrected him during the filming of TDM, he figured his reasonning was sound when he designed another unique patch for the Exeter for Omega Glory.
     
  4. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    It would be (a tiny bit) interesting to find out if Justman wrote *any* dailies-related memos during filming for TDM. Was he around? Gone? Sick? Vacationing? If there's nothing at all from him, that might explain why he missed a Decker's-insignia mistake.
     
  5. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I am unable to follow any of these theories that Commodore Wesley was temporarily in command of USS Lexington for an excercise (and at the expense of its John Doe captain).

    • As we saw in "The Doomsday Machine" it's not unusual for a Commodore to have a starship command
    • Wesley addresses Kirk on a first name basis (and vice versa). It's an expression of the familiarity among the elite starship captains, in contrast the tone between Kirk and other Commodores (bureaucrats) is strictly formal.
    • Kirk and Spock make several comments about Wesley that suggest these references are made to Wesley as a starship commander: "Commodore Wesley is a dedicated commander. I should regret serving aboard the instrument of his death." (Spock) - "Any other commander would have simply followed orders and destroyed us, but I knew Bob Wesley." (Kirk)
    Every seven years in the TOS and movie era (maybe a Vulcan touch) Starfleet upgrades uniforms, hardware and the Starfleet insignia changes (possibly to honor the accomplishments of Starfleet's best starship/s).

    Pike's accomplishments may have lead to the adoption of the Enterprise's delta insignia for Starfleet which we still see in "Court-Martial" at a time of transfer (Lexington's flower is in the progress of replacing all delta insignias except for the individual insignias of starships like the Enterprise, Constellation and Exeter).

    And another hint is the unique size of Wesley's command chair (in contrast to those aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant). That tells me: Starfleet's flagship (and Commodore Wesley is the kind of guy I'd be expecting to command the Federation's flagship).

    Bob
     
  6. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Captain Premium Member

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    :guffaw:

    I think a more reasonable explanation is that Wesley preferred an extension on his chair for extra support.

    KIRK: The Captain's chair on the Enterprise is somewhat uncomfortable, can I get an extension added?

    STARFLEET COMMAND: Captain, you know that only the FLAGSHIP of the fleet is entitled to that chair extension, it's not something to be handed out on a whim. YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!! :lol:
     
  7. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I found the memo in the Roddenberry papers for the original series which were donated to UCLA and publicly accessible there. I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. Its condition matched the other documents in the collection and I doubt someone would have the motivation to fabricate a memo of this sort and include it with the collection -- and, if they could, I doubt they could sneak it in given reading room security.
     
  8. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I just moved to Montana, so someone else would have to check. There ARE Justman authored memos about the episode -- but I do not recall if there are any related to production or post-production.
     
  9. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    I'd love to see anything regarding TDM. It's the first episode of ST I ever saw, and it made me a Trekker for life. It's not only my fav episode of TOS, but of all ST series/movies....

    I wonder if the first episode I ever saw had been "And The Children Shall Lead (my all time lease fav)," would I ever have watched another....:rolleyes:
     
  10. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    If Justman reviewed dailies for TDM, how could he have possibly missed Decker's insignia when he objected to Tracey? Certainly he must have known Decker was another starship captain...
     
  11. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    Justman might have missed the dailies that week. Also, Justman might have known that Decker was actually a starship Commodore, not a starship Captain, and therefor entitled to/obligated to wear a different patch.

    Why do you suppose Justman didn't object back during TDM?
     
  12. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    First, to quote the Justman memo, "I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear." Seems to me that Decker, as the commander of a starship, qualifies as "all starship personnel" regardless of his being a commodore.

    Secondly, I suppose it's possible that Justman missed dailies for TDM, but is it logical to assume he missed most or all of them? William Windom appears in all but the first and last acts in the episode, and is prominently featured, so how likely is it that Justman missed reviewing all of the other acts he appeared in?

    Also, from a previous post, I noted that Justman missed the production of the first couple of episodes of season two due to a hip infection, but Justman himself indicated in his and Solow's book that he was back on the job well before TDM was shot in the latter half of June '67.

    That just makes Justman's strong reaction to seeing Tracey's Exeter patch--apparently on the FIRST day of shooting on "The Omega Glory"--even more curious. Seeing it obviously moved him to write a memo (I'm pretty sure he was kinda busy otherwise) so this matter was of obvious importance to him. How then can anyone, not just me, explain why he had a pronounced reaction to seeing a different patch on one starship commander but not another???:confused:

    Harvey, do any of the other memos/papers etc. shed any light on this?
     
  13. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Nothing I can recall illuminates the issue further. But there are a lot of documents in the collection, and I have read only a fraction of them. It is worth pointing out that Justman wrote or dictated many, many memos -- so the fact that he did so here doesn't suggest any departure from his normal job duties.
     
  14. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    My speculation (and that's all it is, really), is that some review of the dailies had been handled by Gene Coon. (Perhaps Gene Coon is the one who reviewed TDM footage.) After Coon left in September, 1967, more (all?) episodes were reviewed by Justman. There's no memo from Justman about Decker's patch in TDM because Gene Coon was the one who reviewed *those* dailies.
     
  15. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Since you said yourself "It's just a TV show" and probably know they were under a tight budget, maybe you can explain better off-universe why they went through the extra hazzle of only extending Wesley's command chair and not those of Enterprise, Exeter or Defiant (the only other example with an extended command chair was the ISS Enterprise from "Mirror, Mirror", possibly Starfleet's flagship in the mirror universe).

    Apparently, the producers wanted to suggest something about Wesley and the Lexington being different and I'd dare to say that a bigger chair suggests bigger authority.

    When you are done laughing, maybe we can hear your theory?

    Bob
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Or it suggests that their on a different bridge? Since they were cutting back and forth they wanted something cheap to differentiate the two?
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Possible, but unlikely, IMHO. We saw most of the Lexington's bridge scenes on the Enterprise's bridge viewscreen, so I'd say there was sufficient differentiation not to confuse the two.

    Vice versa, it then would have made more sense to equip the Exeter with the high chair, so that audiences would have understood that our protagonists didn't watch a transmission from the Enterprise but the Exeter's log of its chief medical officer.

    Bob
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Probably didn't need to since the Exeter crew, including the Chief Medical Officer, were wearing different patches on their shirts. Add the fact that we watched Kirk and Company beam over to another ship. :shrug:
     
  19. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    I think seeing Bridge B from the viewscreen of Bridge A makes it more confusing, not less confusing. I would speculate that reusing the "Mirror, Mirror" extended back of the command chair was a quick, shorthand way for set decorator John Dwyer to differentiate one Bridge from the other so the audience would better follow what was going on. We had to do silmilar stuff to the Bridge when we showed shots of the Bridge of the USS Copernicus on the viewscreen of the Bridge of the Enterprise in "Blood and Fire." Doing something--anything--to make the Bridges look different is just one more thing that will help the audicence follow what's going on.
     
  20. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Agreed, he was giving helm orders so it would seem he is on the bridge. But some of the confusion does seem to stem from the fact that Trek never set up anything like a "flag bridge." The only position of command was the big chair on the main bridge. Any superior had to either hang around with nowhere to sit, or take the center seat. This extended into the movies, too.

    So, it's hard to reconcile: If Wesley is indeed the ship's commanding officer, why does he wear the Starbase/Starfleet Command badge? And if he's a higher level commander, what is the captain doing?
     

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