Starbuck's speech about Cain

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by Deckerd, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Starbuck made a rousing speech at Cain's funeral where she finished by saying she had felt a lot safer with Cain around (I'm paraphrasing here - I only saw it once).

    At the time nobody picked up on it but it's always jarred with me. Cain was a vindictive, murderous despot and turned her crew into rapists and thugs. Everyone on Galactica knew this. That speech really pissed me off.
     
  2. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^^^ Well, y'know, ol' Starbuck wasn't too terribly well wrapped herself... :) Very much a means-to-an-end personality type, almost identical to Cain. You also have to remember that Starbuck's mother was also terribly venomous and sadistic to her. So, she was most likely projecting those mommy issues on the situation, which makes perfect sense if you put all of it together like that. Cain was clearly a mother-authority figure of unbridled power and influence that Starbuck's damaged psyche forced her to respect and fear.

    I still have visions of Billy sneaking down into the landing bay, late on the night before the funeral when nobody was around, and peeled the Admiral's pins off Cain's uniform to give to Rosslyn for Adama's promotion afterwards. Would have been fitting... :D
     
  3. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Did we know all that about Starbuck during the New Caprica arc? I thought that all came later.

    Not the arc but the meeting of Galactica and Pegasus. You know what I mean.
     
  4. clint g

    clint g Admiral Admiral

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    I thought you found out some of that stuff when Starbuck went back to Caprica and visited her old apartment. It's been a while, perhaps it's time for a re-watch :D
     
  5. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    We knew that she had injuries indicating abuse; I can't recall what "Valley of Darkness" revealed about her home life, though, besides Phillip Glass being her father.
     
  6. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    [snigger]
     
  7. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Not all of it. I think the show-runners had a vague idea of her parental baggage, but didn't flesh it out until later. Regardless of that, however, Starbuck was still not always terribly stable. Her extreme anguish over getting Zak killed also had a lot to do with that in the early seasons.
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One of the fun things about Razor is that Starbuck gets smacking in the head with this when Shaw brings ups that shooting at the enemy even when your own fighters (one of which Starbuck was in) are in the way is something Cain would have done.
     
  9. The Dominion

    The Dominion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Prior to Pegasus Adama was leaning towards becoming a despot who wanted the Galactica to have full control of the fleet. And I can't see Tigh being much more of a responsible leader than Cain at that time either. I think seeing what Cain was doing kept Adama from making similar mistakes.

    I think that Cain was, and would have been a great leader, but her personal vendetta against the Cylons drove her over the edge in her tactics.
     
  10. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    She threw away any chance she had of being a great leader when she murdered civilians and stole their means of survival. Adama may have had his flaws but his stated aim from the start was to keep as many people alive as possible. Quite the opposite of Cain in fact.
     
  11. The Dominion

    The Dominion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What I'm saying is that Cain was a very competent leader, especially compared to the two people who succeeded her and Tigh, but she did horrible things because of her own agenda for revenge. Had she not had that character flaw, she would have been an extremely valuable member of the Colonial Fleet, and I think that's what Starbuck meant in saying that she felt safer with her around.
     
  12. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm pretty sure Cain was relatively "normal" prior to the attack. Sure, she was a go-getter. She rose in the ranks early in her career. Assuming she rose on merit alone, potential nefarious reasons aside, she probably was an excellent Commander. Then, two things happened - the sneak attack and the realization that Gina was a Six. The former hardened her into battle mode. We could assume this is something she trained for. The Gina thing is what put her over the edge into sociopath territory. The fact that she was sleeping with an enemy, who had access to her ship at the highest levels, responsible for the death of billions, and without ever having even suspected a little...well, I think that was a serious ego-crusher for Cain which put her on a one-way trip to dementia. No doubt she fancied herself a good judge of character up until that point.

    To quote Rush "Emotion Detector":
     
  13. Wereghost

    Wereghost Part-time poltergeist Commodore

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    We got a hint of parental abuse in The Farm, when Simon (pretending to be a human doctor) comments that Starbuck's fingers on one hand seemed to have all been broken in the same place (if I recall).
     
  14. The Dominion

    The Dominion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But I don't think the betrayal was what hardened her, just the final straw. Razor revealed the loss of her sister to the Cylons which I think was the trauma that really made it a personal thing with them. It also makes me wonder what Adama would have done if the Cylons would have killed Zak.
     
  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Most of what ended up on screen in seasons two and three about Kara is actually in the series bible, dated December 17, 2003. It's an interesting read, and shows that a lot of thought went into the characters on the show (which is probably why the show was best when focusing on character drama, rather than plot theatrics).
     
  16. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    AH! Forgot about the sister arc. Quite right - I remember that now. I think that was definitely one of the first significant catalysts - if not THE first - for her personality "quirks".

    Very cool - maybe they did have that in mind, then, with Starbuck's interactions with Cain after all.
     
  17. lvsxy808

    lvsxy808 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's a fascinating document that I've never seen before. I find it very interesting that, while some minor aspects were changed as the series developed, some of them held amazingly close to what actually happened later.

    For example, there are scenes described in this 2003 series bible, before a single episode had been written, that we actually see dramatised in the series finale in 2009. Lee and Kara's first awkwardly flirtatious meeting, and the circumstances surrounding Roslin's family's deaths, turn out exactly as described in that document, despite however many changes and developments the entire show went through over the intervening years. That demonstrates a real vision for who these characters were back at the beginning, and a real commitment to keeping them that way by the end.

    As for Starbuck, there were also Leoben's lines in "Flesh and Bone" in s1 where he talked about things he shouldn't have been able to know about - that Kara's mother believed that suffering promoted growth and therefore made sure Kara suffered.

    .
     
  18. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given Starbuck's personal history, it isn't surprising that she'd gravitate towards somebody like Cain, although she (Starbuck) did have enough sense of what was right and wrong to not let herself be completely caught up in Cain's methods, which were driven by revenge as much as anything else. The gist of Starbuck's speech is that, while Cain's methods might've been more than a bit extreme at times, the woman herself was a person she (Starbuck) was proud to have known and served with even briefly, and that assessment isn't changed, IMO, by anything that we learn in Razor. If anything, what we learn in Razor only strengthens the impact of Starbuck's speech because it shows just how spot-on Starbuck ended up being when assessing and eulogizing Cain.
     
  19. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Your right on the money there. The Farm was, at least, the first episode to suggest abuse.

    And Kara got more worked up than usual at the suggestion too.
     
  20. Trimm

    Trimm Captain Captain

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    What's interesting to me about Kara's speech at the end of RS2 is that it's fundamentally true. Cain pretty well fits the description that Kara lays out, and it's at least arguable that they really were ultimately safer with her around than they ended up being by the end of Season 2.

    I've always wondered what was going through Cain's head before Gina's bullet did (with regards to Bob Gunton in The Shawshank Redemption.)
     

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