Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by timothy, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    Well "good guy" is up for question. Personally I think her actions in eps such as Tuvix or Endgame go wildly against that -I would actually stop reading voyager books if she was the main character, simply because the actions she has taken make it hard for me to relate to her at all.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    That's because you're assuming it's personal. It's not. It's about wanting fiction in general to treat death honestly, to confront and acknowledge the loss. The death of a loved one is something we all have to deal with in real life, sooner or later. And fiction can help us cope with painful emotions like that. So it's not about hating a character or wanting them to be dead. It's about facing the reality of losing someone you love, accepting and working through it, rather than trying to deny or avoid it. In real life, when a loved one dies, you don't get them back, but you don't stop loving them either. You cherish their memory and incorporate their legacy into your life going forward.

    Which is exactly what Kirsten Beyer's VGR novels have done with Janeway. Her books have been pervaded with love and admiration for Janeway, even in the character's absence. Janeway looms larger over the books where she's dead than she did in many of the books where she was alive. So this has nothing to do with not loving Janeway.


    No, she isn't. It's called Star Trek: Voyager, not Star Trek: Janeway. Like every other modern Trek series, it was created from the start as an ensemble show. It revolved around nine characters, not just one. Janeway had a larger number of focus episodes than any other single character, but she was the primary focus of no more than a third of the series' episodes. Just to be crystal-clear, that means that there were twice as many episodes centering on other characters than episodes centering on Janeway. And in seasons 4-7, Janeway had only slightly more focus episodes than Seven of Nine did.


    They did kill off Kirk. Star Trek continued.


    Lots of people love Janeway. But many of us, hopefully most of us, are mature enough to realize that you can keep loving someone even after they die. In fact, we often get more in touch with our love for people after they're gone.


    Assuming you mean Q, we don't actually know that. Picard was on the operating table in sickbay at the time. Q claimed that Picard was dead and needed Q to save him, but Q is a notorious liar. We have no objective confirmation that Picard ever died on that table.


    As with everything in fiction, there is no single universal rule that applies the same to everything. There are certainly series where the main character died and the series continued successfully thereafter -- including Blake's 7, Robin of Sherwood, Earth: Final Conflict, and (this one's a few years old, but recent enough that I'll spoiler-code it)
    Primeval.
     
  3. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

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    Neo and Trinity were killed near the end of the final Matrix movie. how did Revolutions tank off the back of that?

    if Revolutions did tank (which it didn't. sure, it took less than Reloaded, but it took $400mill+ globally off a $110 mill budget, NOT a flop) it tanked off the back of people thinking Reloaded sucked.

    so, what's your point again?
     
  4. Forevertj

    Forevertj Ensign Newbie

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    Janeway needs to be brought back. It was a huge mistake to Kill her off and I think they realize that now. You do not kill off heros in Sci Fi. It doesn't work and outrages people. I meant Q. I have a tumor on my chest and I am not exactly all here. I apologize if I make little sense. I am worried to death until monday I hope.


    I don't read anything else, simply because I don't have the time. Not because I don't want to.

    She is the main character, not the only one. I know that, but it's always about the captain. Look at the guest list at the Trek convention in Vegas this year. Every single person that is on the top of the page getting top billing is a captain without a single exception. Period.

    YOU DO NOT kill off the captain. It never goes over well and it's lazy writing when someone doesn't know how to evolve the chracter. Hey, let's just kill her off since we don't know what to do. Wrong.
     
  5. Forevertj

    Forevertj Ensign Newbie

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    I was hoping I could make a statement and that would be it. I am not here to argue. I don't have the energy or desire to argue. We are fans. If you don't like what a fan says, ignore them, but don't challenge them. This is a fan forum, not a debate forum.
     
  6. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    ...it's a forum

    the clue is in the name
     
  7. Elias Vaughn

    Elias Vaughn Captain Captain

    Is it the 'um'?
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    And one of the things that fans do is debate. That's what a forum is for: discussion. If people just ignored everyone who had a different view of an issue than they did, there'd be no discussion.

    The whole reason that discussion boards are called forums is in honor of the Roman Forum and its famous role as a place where the people gathered to engage in political discussion and debate, the sharing of diverse points of view. It's by challenging each other's views and having our own views challenged that we learn, refine our positions, and hopefully come to a greater understanding. A good debate is a mutual learning experience, not a hostile confrontation.
     
  9. Travis Chesser

    Travis Chesser Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I think my problem with your argument Forevertj is that you speak as if your opinion is universal truth. The way you keep saying things, it sounds like it is accepted fact that you never kill the heroes, because it sucks and is bad writing. But its not universal truth. Its simply an opinion. I don't think a hero dying is bad writing. I don't think Janeway should be brought back. Not because I don't like Janeway, I'm actually quite fond of her, but I have enjoyed the stories of those left behind dealing with how much she meant and their pain. That is part of life. So not everyone shares your view, just like not everyone shares mine. But you keep talking as if you are sharing known factual wisdom and the writers of the books are just idiots. They're not. I like it when heroes sacrifice themselves and die. I didn't think the Matrix Revolutions tanked just because Neo and Trinity died. I think it tanked because of other reasons. To be honest, I am surprised Janeway survived the show's series finale. Out of every captain on the show (with the argument of Sisko), she had one single purpose: get her crew home. I thought for sure she would sacrifice herself in the finale achieving that purpose. As Christopher said, people die in real life. Part of any good fiction is how do you move on and deal with loss? Honestly, I think it is unrealistic as many main Trek characters are still alive in the novels as there is, considering the state of war that has been off an on.

    Anyways, not trying to argue with you, and I'm sorry if you take it that way. A forum is a place for debate and discussion of differing ideas and views. Sorry about your health issues man and I hope it turns out okay, just trying to explain my POV.
     
  10. Jarvisimo

    Jarvisimo Captain Captain

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    It's ridiculous to argue that having the core heroes dying is bad writing. I think the names Hector and Achilles are most prominent in my head, written/composed by one of the finest creative minds in human history, followed by many of the heroes of classical, medieval and early modern narrative.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Man, that Shakespeare must've been a hack, since the title characters in half his plays ended up dead.
     
  12. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You are quite entitled to your opinion. No one can say you are wrong for wanting Janeway back - that is how you feel, but it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

    This is a forum for discussion - not a space that you can justy make a statement and leave it, people will have DIFFERENT opinions. If you say something, you have to be prepared to support it...
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think so. There's no need for it to go beyond "I think X" and a few "I disagree because of Y" replies. Endless "Nu-uh!"/"Yuh-huh!" -ing after the point isn't for everyone. Sometimes a statement stands on it's own. Let others think whatever the hell they want.
     
  14. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I couldn't disagree more about the killing main characters thing. For a little over a year now I've been working on an idea I have for an Urban Fantasy universe, and in the end of the first book I kill off a character who I was setting up to be one of the major three character. And to be honest, I think killing her off was one of the best ideas I came up with, because it helped to provide character development for the other heroes, showed just how dangerous the villain was, and it allowed me to bring in a new character who's presence helped me go from one brief idea to a whole series of ideas.
     
  15. 21Spike65

    21Spike65 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hahaha, I enjoyed this comment enough to chime in on a thread I probably wouldn't normally have. I couldn't agree more. Half the time, I chime in on a thread, then never manage to actually make it back to the thread to see if anyone ever commented on what I said. This may be a forum, but it's one here for the reader's enjoyment and I have complete control over how much I want to read and participate. :)

    (Disclaimer to future replies: I've got a busy week coming up, so there's a good chance I'll never see another post in this thread. ;))
     
  16. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

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    Primus, if you think killing off the main character is a bad idea, never get into Transformers, they kill Optimus Prime off in EVERY iteration and sometimes more than once cuz the guy's a freaking energizer bunny that keeps coming back.

    seriously, there's even an entire page on the TF wiki just for OP's many deaths. some times he's back in (literally) seconds, other times he doesn't come back for some time.

    but than, i suppose you'd say, 'oh, well, they bring him back though'. yeah, and it's a freaking joke. i KNEW well enough not to get upset in Revenge of the Fallen when Prime died because i knew damn well he wouldn't stay dead.
     
  17. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    Hey, someone's gotta light our darkest hour.

    who else is going to? hot rod? pfft
     
  18. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

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    Certainly not Ultra Magnus, clearly...
     
  19. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Forevertj, I strongly disagree with you, for reasons Christopher has already outlined. But wherever we stand on this issue, I just want to wish you a speedy and complete recovery! :)
     
  20. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    oh yeah, that guy hasn't got a leg to stand on.