Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Dale Sams, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Without peace and aid from the Federation, the Empire will collapse/break up. Now this isn't some internal last-second coup that we may have seen when the USSR was about to break-up. This is a long drawn-out plan with aid from Federation conspirators*. What exactly is Chang (who doesn't seem stupid) and friends plan?

    You could say, he wasn't thinking that far ahead, but the very nature of the length of time it takes to make a conspiricy makes that unlikely. These aren't your normal block-headed TNG Klingons.

    *Also the Federation conspiracy makes sense. You can help the Klingons and have them rise up again to possibly conquer you. Which DID happen in one reality based on the most tenuous of events, and then there was the Accords being torn up in the Dominion Events.

    OR, you can let them collapse under their own weight, completely from their own hubris. Thus legitimizing your own political way of life for everyone to see.

    and it makes perfect sense a Vulcan was involved. Instead of being all pissy, she should have just said what I just did. And I hope the Romulan ambassador wasn't worried. It makes even more sense from his point of view. They should have been the ones to come up with the idea. Maybe the Romulans promised to help Chang and then would have pulled the rug out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  2. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    My impression is that Chang and his fellow hard-liners wanted to invade the Federation and take their resources, rather than rely on the Federation's charity. And if the invasion failed . . . well, at least they went down fighting in one glorious final battle. Victory or defeat, live free or die . . . that kinda thing.

    They wanted a military solution, not a diplomatic one.

    (There's a scene, remember, where some hard-line Klingon generals present Azetbur with a plan for an all-out military strike against the Federation, but she shoots them down.)
     
  3. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This was my impression as well - that they wanted to take the resources they needed, either from the Federation or from other conquests, because they saw that as being Klingon, and they saw negotiating peace as weak.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why did Chang need conspiritors from within the federation? Chang certainly could have had Gorkon assasinated without outside help, what did the federation side bring to the table that Chang really needed?

    :)
     
  5. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Framing Kirk for the assassination, which required Brock's assistance, would increase the chance of war and turn the Klingon people against cooperating with Starfleet. It wasn't enough just to kill Gorkon. You had to completely discredit the idea of making peace with the Federation.

    Instead of Gorkon becoming a martyr to peace, he could instead become a battle cry. "Remember Gorkon! Death to the Federation!"

    I don't think Chang expected Azetbur to continue the peace process after the assassination. He probably thought she would opt for revenge against Starfleet. And I don't think he planned on the Klingon judge commuting the death sentence against Kirk and McCoy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  6. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yup, an outside enemy is a good way to have an internal cohesion. Assasinating Gorkon from inside would have been a suicidal moove. It would have divided the Empire at the worst time.
     
  7. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    Yet his last words were, "Don't let it end this way."
     
  8. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Oops. My mistake. I meant Chang expected Azetbur to seek revenge.

    Let me fix that to avoid any future confusion.
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes Greg I get that, but the point I was making is that Chang didn't need help from the federation to do all that.

    It wasn't the idea of the federation conspirators to have Kirk (who the Klingons hate) be the one to escort Gorkon to Earth, that was all Spock's doing.

    Gorkon's ship could have been escorted by any starship (and captain) and Chang's plan to have a cloaked ship fire on Gorkon's ship and have two people assassin Gorkon still would have worked, getting Kirk was just a extra for Chang.

    The only Klingon who saw the two assassins actually beam aboard was quickly killed, it apparently wasn't part of the plan for the beam in to be witnessed, so the two assassins (Klingons posing as Humans?) could have been already aboard Gorkon's ship.

    Why did Chang need anyone from within the federation?

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ... It was in the script.
     
  11. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

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    I think it was explicitly mentioned in the Starfleet briefing at the beginning of the movie that some elements of the Klingon government/military would consider it more honourable to go down fighting instead of "surrendering" to (= accepting help from) the Federation.

    They wanted to instigate a war so that they have an opportunity to die like warriors.

    Chang must have been pretty disappointed when Kirk decided to surrender himself right after the assassination of Gorkon. That didn't go according to plan, because Kirk was supposed to defend himself and fire at the Klingon flagship and hence start a war.
     
  12. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Also, I don't think Chang's plan hinged on Kirk's presence. He just needed a Federation ship on the scene for the assassination. I imagine Chang did the Klingon equivalent of a happy dance when he found out he could pin Gorkon's murder on THE James T. Kirk. Of course, the plan might have worked had Kirk not been there...
     
  13. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What's funny is if the assassin had seen Kirk he needn't have fired at all. Kirk (and Sulu) destroy a priceless prototype that was in orbit guarding the conference, then beam down like insane maniacs and tackle the President. All after invading Klingon space and breaking Kirk out of prison. Starfleet is full of crazy, paranoid idiots.

    Assassin: "Yeah...that'll work" (wraps up his business and leaves.)
     
  14. Tribble puncher

    Tribble puncher Captain Captain

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    They Had Valeris's Admission. of course the Assassin didn't know that. But yeah the Assassin still trying to shoot the president after Kirk had beamed down was pretty stupid. what I'm amazed at is there were not a ton of ships in orbit of and around Khitomer. (Fed and Klingon, other races who had a stake in the negotiations. I'm surprised the Enterprise wasn't siezed on sight.)
     
  15. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not so sure that if the destruction of the prototype could be really used against Kirk and Sulu. If you are a pragmatical Klingon, you will see this new technology as both dangerous for the domestic security and not so useful for the battle because the opponent is able to adapt his weaponry. If you're a liberal Klingon, you will see this as a dishonorable terror tool and a starter for an arms race. It's easy to appear as a fanatic by defending this new kind of cloaked ship. From the Federation side, this prototype can only be welcomed by the Cartwright's camp.
     
  16. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Precisely. There was a line spoken by one of the other Klingon generals (the one commanding the prototype BOP, IIRC) to the effect of "better we die on our feet than live on our knees."

    --Sran
     
  17. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    If you've never read Cast No Shadow, Kirk being given the mission was actually Cartwright's idea because he knew of the former's dislike of Klingons. Spock later vouched for Kirk as included in TUC's dialogue, and the mission was set. Cartwright assumed Kirk would retaliate if Gorkon's ship fired on Enterprise, but he failed to realize what made Kirk such an effective leader in the first place: Kirk understood the importance of when to fire and held his ground rather than start a war.

    --Sran
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What is with the Romulan and Earth collaboration, though? The Romulan embassador being in cahoots with STAR FLEET and let in on closed door sessions with the Federation President is completely inexplicable and totally inconsistant with the STAR TREK universe. They shouldn't be there. Compared to this, the rest of the plot, regarding Klingons and STAR FLEET collaborating on ending every chance for a peaceful settlement makes perfect sense.
     
  19. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^Recall that the Romulans of TOS were much more Federation-friendly than their TNG counterparts. It's not entirely implausible that a Romulan diplomat would be present for such a meeting. Were Smilie and the others concerned about his presence being a security risk, they could simply have asked him to leave.

    --Sran
     
  20. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I ...

    ... I suppose so.