Star Trek V - The Dream Theory

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Khan 2.0, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If you look at TFF as a strange dream of Kirks...from the first campsite scene post mountain fall to right at the end of the film with the 'Row Row Row your boat' reprise..then its possible that Trek V is actually a masterpiece of modern day cinema like a Blade Runner or Inception

    Consider:

    - The events of the movie are a reflection of Kirk's fears: being put back into action while he's unprepared, geting screwed by Starfleet, losing his crew and losing, above all, his friends.
    - Events/discussions from the camping trip are mirrored/manifested in the dream: climbing El Capitan/climbing the mountain at the end...the fall from El Capitan/the fall from the turbo shaft...musing around the campfire/musing around the steering wheel....Kirks fear of dying alone/being alone on an uncharted planet with a Godlike alien that wants to kill him.
    - The broken and unreliable Enterprise is another fear of Kirk; that no ship can live up to the original.
    - The movie follows dream logic: characters appear when needed (rocket booted Spock in the turboshaft, Scotty in the brig, Spock in the BoP) and reality 'warps' to accomodate the story (70+ decks, the mysterious wheel room, unicorns, sybok, God).
    - Kirk ate gods for breakfast, so its no surprise they show up in his dreams. The fight against God' is Kirks subconscious idea of a generic adventure. Likewise, a Klingon is his idea of a generic villain. Also the whole fake God thing can be interpreted as Kirk's own atheist belief that there is no higher power.
    - Spock having a brother which was never mentioned before.
    - The romantic relationship between Scotty and Uhura.
    - A 30 year plus impossible journey to the centre of the galaxy that happens in a few hours.
    -the whole Sybok healing everyones pain and the fact that Kirk, Spock and Bones could see each other's illusionary flashbacks.
    - the song 'Row, Row, Row Your Boat' ends with the line 'life is but a dream.'
    - when going through the great barrier and the 3 are in the mysterious wheel room Bones asks 'are we dreaming?' and Kirk goes 'if we are..then life is a dream.'
    - going to a mystery planet at the centre of the universe to meet god (who looks like youd expect him to look) only for god to turn out evil has a very dream/nightmare like quality to it.
    - surviving a photo torpedo detonation by ducking behind a pillar
    - Being chased by a floating God head which shoots lightning bolts from it's eyes would have had a very nightmare like quality to it
    -The Klingons coming to Kirk's rescue is Kirk's subconcious trying to forgive the Klingon's for the death of his son.
    - In the end, Spocks saves his ass, just like he saved Spocks.
    - Kirk, Spock and Bones remain together for much of the movie..just like at the campsite..
    - And of course the story starting and ending in the same spot, with the Kirk, Spock and McCoy wearing the same clothes.

    When you look at the movie as a nightmare, a reflection of Kirks subconscious fears and desires, it actually, somehow, makes *more* sense. In fact, it starts making a *lot* of sense

    When people finally realise this what Shatner did its going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever....just like was Deckard a Replicant? did the totem fall?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  2. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    Just, wow...

    Two things;

    1. I thought the answer to both the Blade Runner & Inception questions was finally settled as a Yes by the directors, actors, and producers. Therefore, your theory is correct.

    2. I never thought that way about this movie before. In this case, this is the greatest Trek movie.
     
  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Captain Captain

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    I have mixed feelings about this. In one way...it makes sense and fixes a lot of issues. In another, it kind of "minimizes" the film a bit, and this happens to be a movie I have a soft spot for...!

    Interesting stuff though!
     
  4. SimpleLogic

    SimpleLogic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Maybe the dream theory could be even more interesting if the "Evil God" took the form of Gary Mitchell (One of Kirk's failures coming back to haunt him)
     
  5. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I like this a lot. I especially like it if instead of a dream, it is the last thoughts Kirk's fading, dying mind had on Veridian III. He always knew he'd die alone, but in the end, his friends were right there with him, in his mind and his heart.
     
  6. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Personally, I'd love to dismiss STAR TREK V: The Final Frontier as some soap-opera'ish "it was all just a bad dream" ploy, but William Shatner, himself, has stated that he hates those kinds of stories and I am forced to reject this theory. Understand I do not care for this ... ugh! ... (what word?) this "film" at all, but t'was always intended to be a part of the STAR TREK universe. This "happened." It was "real." Spock has a brother and ... he feels your pain.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    The biggest problem I have with the theory is Shatner doesn't mention anything close to this in Star Trek Movie Memories.
     
  8. Vger23

    Vger23 Captain Captain

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    I think it comes down to "personal canon" and how you create stories or excuses in your mind to deal with the less-desirable aspects of Star Trek.

    I personally find this kind of approach far more interesting and productive than just getting mad and bashing the ever-living snot out of something.
     
  9. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    STAR TREK: The Next Generation is all "real." Every last bit of it. And the TOS episodes it references are real. The rest of the franchise, the jury is out on.
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I like Star Trek V, so I bristle at the idea that it was somehow more make believe than the rest of make believe Trek. As ridiculous as that sounds.

    DS9 on the other hand, that's all just Benny Russell's stories.:p
     
  11. bbailey861

    bbailey861 Admiral Premium Member

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    I liked this movie but the ending, Kirk's death specifically, was poorly, poorly done. For this, I blame the writing. 2takesfrakes, your loyalty to TNG is admirable. Laughable, at times, but admirable.

    I also liked Star Trek V, but the infamous "Faux God and rock monsters that never were' scene was also poorly, poorly done. I would like to know if a higher budget and better effects would have made it better.

    Khan 2.0, The whole dream theory idea was well thought out and interesting idea, though.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I've occasionally thought that Voyager's "Threshold" might be redeemable if everything after Paris's transwarp flight is a dream or hallucination he experiences.

    A bigger budget or better effects would not have improved ST V, because its problems are conceptual. It didn't need more added (especially rock monsters, which would've been a really stupid climax for a story about a quest for God), it needed stuff deleted. Cut out the three lines about the center of the galaxy, cut out the impossibly high turboshaft, cut out Scotty hitting his head on a pipe, cut out Uhura flirting with Scotty, maybe change the photon torpedoes at the climax to phasers (because antimatter warheads going off that close to the leads would vaporize them and everything for kilometers around them, not just knock them off their feet), and it becomes a much smarter movie.
     
  13. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Star Trek V was Kirk's dream and my nightmare.
     
  14. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Interesting suggestions. I wonder if there's enough surviving cut/alternate footage to replace the problem scenes and come away with something stronger?
     
  15. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    Thta explains DECK 87 too!

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Trek Survivor

    Trek Survivor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't have to make weird reasoning to enjoy ST:V... I like it just fine already.
     
  17. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could see this being easily put together to make it fit. Shot of the Enterprise from TUC. Kirk laying down to go to sleep in his cabin. Dissolve to Star Trek 5. Play movie out. Just before end credits roll, Spock wakes Kirk up to tell him about the radiation surge. It was all just a weird, impossible dream.

    Damned Romulan Ale!
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hey!!! Watch it ...
    :lol: ((...snicker))
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I actually think it's a really good (and interesting) idea, making TFF a dream of Kirk's.
     
  20. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    Interesting theory/interpretation.

    One thing it doesn't take into account that Klaa is seen at Kirk and McCoy's trial in Star Trek VI.