Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Jiraiya, May 9, 2009.

  1. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    My point was that they had lots of elements such as the shotonvideo stuff that were of seriously INFERIOR quality, way below 35mm, that in no way could be used for BR DVD and probably look like crap on the current DVDs as well.
     
  2. Cheapjack

    Cheapjack Fleet Captain

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    Here you go:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

    And look at Tweaktown and high def digest.

    http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2769/star_trek_the_voyage_home_hd_movie_review/index.html

    http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2467/startrek4_voyagehome.html

    Or, even better, use your eyes on the stills they have provided.
    They have exactly the same look and colour balance to them as the standard DVD. I think it highly unlikely that in 1999, they took a HD master of the film and transfered it to standard res DVD, and kept a high res copy, just in case they were going to bring out a high def version ten years later.

    If it's possible to get film or high def quality material from standard DVD, why do they shoot a film originally on film? Why don't they just use a video camera and upscale it? Cos, you can't that's why. It's a very clever fake and it's a con. I bet they're doing it on all those HD channels.
     
  3. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    Cheapjack the video source is frustrating for home theater buffs for feature films on Blu-ray.
    AVSforum.com has very finicky members that get into visual detail critiques both technical and aesthetically.
    Perhaps you should check it out.

    Can we get back on topic here? TNG TV series....
    Once Paramount/CBS home video puts out Star Trek XI they only have one thing left 'in the can' which is 'Enterprise' on Blu-ray. Since any TNG-R would take a lot of time surely they would announce it next year.
     
  4. Cheapjack

    Cheapjack Fleet Captain

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    Thing is, they may just release TNG upscaled too.
     
  5. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    Voyager HD tests vs TNG 35mm

    With Paramount sextuplet-dipping on TOS seasons:
    from this:
    http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3174825&postcount=1

    I really doubt Paramount/CBS home video would triple-dip on Blu-ray with TNG at standard resolution. Fans are not going to repurchase TNG on Blu-ray after they already bought it on VHS & DVD if there is not a huge incentive (visual quality).

    The same goes for Voyager.
    Now one thing I would like to see is the HD tests that were done on the sets of Voyager in 2001:
    the director of photography on Enterprise (93 episodes, 2001-2005) and on Voyager (24 episodes, 1995-1999)
    Breaking the Comfort Zone
    Mar 1, 2005



    Tales from the HD Trenches
    Mar 1, 2002


    The Case for Film
    Sep 1, 2002


    So Voyager's set was shot in HD for tests in 2001 on scenes but we'll probably never see it as it is doubtful Voyager would get a Blu-ray release.
    TNG was all 35mm and unless they do a TNG-R we won't see it in HD.
     
  6. Cheapjack

    Cheapjack Fleet Captain

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    Thanks for those links, Jeffries. They've given me something to chew on.

    Looking at those stills from TOS on High Def, you can tell they are more detailed. Just looking at those motion picture stills, you can tell they are enhanced. There's something odd about them.

    I'll still be buying them, though. They're only £130 on Amazon. They're a step up from standard DVD as much as SD was a step up from VHS.

    Who knows, they might be able to do this sort of thing on a home PC in twenty years time. You could buy the original film and do it yourself!

    To get back to OP, it says on one of the sites that TNG has a video master. As people have stated before, they would have to do the effects again, if they have the film.

    My bet is they'll just enhance it, though they might do what they did with the TOS.
     
  7. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    I just saw this and found it very interesting:
    Dan Curry...
    http://digitalcontentproducer.com/mag/video_disappearing_models/index.html

    Technically the visual effects house that did the CG work
    on TNG could lease those actual CG models to a new visual effects company for any TNG-R work. Similar to how the Ent-D CG models were transferred to different software for other work using Ent-D.

    While some Trek fans want to always see the physical Ent-D model:
    ManaByte wrote
    These two posts show how a CG model, the Ent-D can be reused and rendered in HD resolution for a Blu-ray release:
    http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2721777&postcount=39
    http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2693205&postcount=21

    the software today is so much better than in the early 1990s and keeping a CG model and maybe adding better textures and particles would give more details to alien CG models and smoother keyframe animation (in 24fps with motion blur not more fps).
    A CG model is only the start. The textures available like the work that has come from Shrek and current CG movies are so much more photorealistic than what could have even been done in the early 1990s. So yes it would totally be a TNG-R with new visual effects...
     
  8. Butters

    Butters Captain Captain

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    A good miniature shot should look real. A good CGI sequence should look real. Only our knowledge that there is no real starship should betray the effect and as amazing as the filming models were, there's not one shot of it in TNG that would stand up to either today's CGI standards or current viewer expectations.

    TNG is heading for HD and its not just for the hardcore collection purchasing weirdos that lurk here and eleswhere. There are millions of casual viewers and potential fans flicking through their premium subscription channels wondering what's so special about their overpriced TV and digital HD tv package. They may find remastered TNG and see how amazing it looks on their new telly, much better than they remember in the 90s, and fuel demand for more trek in HD, DS9, VOY, and even a new series...

    Alternatively, TNG could just become a latenight fringe channel repeat show for insomniacs, appreciated only by those who don't mind vintage special effects and those who just want moving pictures in the small hours. To everyone else, standard definition shows from the 90s will looks as old and irrelevant as black and white did in the 80s.

    I'm looking forward to a formal announcement on this.
     
  9. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    I'm glad you have some real enthusiasm for this since no announcement has been made other than the Okuda's mentioning the original camera negative [OCN] of TNG is in storage.


    Sure a business looks at units being sold of DVD & Blu-ray to see if a R.O.I. is worth making a special edition that will sell. The level of investment for TNG to be reconformed to HD though is astronomical including all the visual effects.


    This is absolutely true. While not now or soon (under 5 years) as people watch things (in standard definition 640x480 pixels) via FLASH on their computers and will do so for years but yes eventually when HDTVs garner 50% of the market standard definition will be obsolete.
    Sure we'll still see standard definition used in news/journalism for you-are-there actual moments captured with an iPhone or cameraphone or digital still camera but not for anything scripted narrative except maybe on TV LAND channel.
    Even high schools and colleges A/V and film departments are using high definition video now...
     
  10. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Today's standards for ship stuff is LOWER than the 90s, not higher. DS9's miniature stuff looks better than most stuff that followed it. Except for FIREFLY, most CG spaceship stuff on the tube is not close to photorealistic.
     
  11. jefferiestubes8

    jefferiestubes8 Commodore Premium Member

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    I just watched TNG season 7 last disc with special features yesterday and the episode "Parallels" had a shot with hundreds of Ent-D ships that were all shot on motion control camera with 35mm film.
    For them to remaster that shot from the film camera negative they would have to locate each piece of film of each ship and them composite them all in. The shot was only 5 seonds or so!
    That shot alone shows why if a TNG-R were done that a Ent-D would be fully CGI for all visual effects shots.
     
  12. SeattleMatt

    SeattleMatt Ensign Red Shirt

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    So is the final cut a common thing among all of the series between TOS and ENT? If so even a higher resolution edition would be pointless.
     
  13. Butters

    Butters Captain Captain

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    Its not just a case of the standard of detail or photorealism of a scene though. Much of DS9 did present a high standard, but the introduction of the new opener in season 4, with eva guys and passing starships, only served to highlight what was missing from the regular episode effects.

    B5 for example, the CGI wasn't especially convincing, but it did forward the narrative in a visually interesting way that physical models couldn't hope to compete with on weekly basis. However high the standard of modelling was, CGI today is giving us reflections on glass and glimpses through windows to see the crew inside on a TV budget.

    Dissapointingly, SG:U has adopted a tradional cartoony apprearance to its CGI that remains inferior to TNG in terms of photorealism. But it doesn't have to be that way.

    Miniature work produced some of my all time favourite space sequences, such as the wounded Enterprise - B overpass in Generations, and the pullback from the station at the start of Event Horizon.

    NuBSG (spit) has some amazing and close up exterior shots, indeed, in Razor, theres an amzing internal shot of flightdeck after a crash landing that left me rubbing my eyes such was the attention to detail and rendering.

    If done right, the CGI in a new TNGr would make us feel like we're there.
     
  14. FreddyE

    FreddyE Captain Captain

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    Wouldn´t it be possible to just "upconvert" the existing show to HD and then rotoscope the old effects and make new? Wouldn´t be nearly as good as starting from the negatives of course...but better then nothing?
     
  15. Cheapjack

    Cheapjack Fleet Captain

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    I think that a blu ray player would upscale anyway, if you put a standard DVD in it.

    Why pay more for an upscaled DVD? It's a bit of a rip off.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    TOS was shot and edited all on film. There was no videotape involved. So it was airable in HD from the get-go.

    TNG, DS9 and Voyager would have to have all their EFX recreated from scratch, since those were done on tape. ENT, from what I can gather, would have to have the EFX *re-rendered*, but not recreated. There is a difference.
     
  17. FreddyE

    FreddyE Captain Captain

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    I thought some more about it. Since the effects were done on video and they have to reassemble the episodes from raw material anyway (since probably no film master copy without effects exists) they save the time and money for rotoscoping, right? Finding the right takes of every episode and putting them together shouldn´t be that big of a deal? Surely there´s some kind of document where they noted down wich takes they used?
     
  18. Jefferies

    Jefferies Captain Captain

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    Indeed, from what I have read this seems to be the case. In fact, the edit information might have been noted directly on the raw film parts. Thus if they have the original film material they also know how it needs to be edited. However, I do not know how conistently this notation was done. Nonetheless, even if they didn't have the documentation, all they would need to do is employ a few dudes to go through every episode and compare them with the raw film parts to get this information. Surely that wouldn't be the money sink of this project?
     
  19. Cheapjack

    Cheapjack Fleet Captain

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    How much would that cost? And would they make a profit? Has anyone here put the standard DVD in a blu ray player and seen the results on a HD screen?
     
  20. GhostFaceSaint

    GhostFaceSaint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You know most of this technology is still changing and improving, eventually they may be able to transfer the old 35mm negatives onto 1080p HD efficiently and therefore cheaply but the problem would come that the "Hero" version of the USS Enterprise would cost a lot of money to do it digitally on the same level of detail as the USS Enterprise in the film Star Trek (XI), that cg model cost a lot of money to render. What about other ships like Romulan Bird's of Prey or the Borg Cube? Don't get me wrong I want them to redo all those shots for my big screen TV but the money could still easily be in the millions for just one season just because of the CG but the CG rendering technology is also improving becoming cheaper to to do but I don't want them to do any new CG if it is not up to the scale of XI Enterprise, so it may take a few more years to see any remastered TNG.