Star Trek Maps (1980)

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Darkwing, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    This dry land thing is too wierd!
  2. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    I finished the cleanup of Star Trek Maps. I'll post it when I get a chance - my phone can't handle it.
    After I modify it to account for real star posits, I'll start adding in Fasa and novel material. Anyone got any suggestions as to where some of those worlds might be?
     
  3. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    This dry land thing is too wierd!
  4. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You could try making all three empires completely non-contiguous.

    That "Federation space" is just a sphere about 20ly in diameter around a planet/system that the Federation has claimed and/or colonized and everything else is "interstellar space" that no one can legally (or feasibly) claim to control. If you also add a a certain interpretation to interstellar law that basically makes "unclaimed" space a kind of lawless free-for-all, then starships from opposing fleets can do whatever the hell they want in the interstellar regions without worrying about the political blowback; it becomes a "declared war" when they violate the territorial claims of those choice systems, which is why the Federation and the Klingons (and also the Romulans) only ever come to blows over planets that BOTH sides want to claim for themselves.

    In that sense you could think of "Klingon territory" as generalization for "systems the Klingons own," and you can't really know exactly where this is without looking at the star chart for your local area. That would also explain why we have such a hard time understanding where the Klingon and Romulan empires actually are; they literally are EVERYWHERE, just like the Federation.

    Why hold that assumption at all? Even in maritime law, it's become convention that you can really only claim territory (waters, airspace, etc) that you can feasibly control. If you can't control it or exclude others from using it, your claim on that territory is meaningless.

    When you consider how thinly distributed and far-flung Starfleet really is, it's simply infeasible for them to actually claim huge swaths of interstellar space and say "Mine!" despite the fact that they cannot realistically prevent alien ships from entering those regions (and in most cases, may not even realize those regions have been penetrated). If, OTOH, "Federation space" only exists in the area around "Federation Worlds" then it isn't a matter of distance or proximity; you may have two colony worlds with a million people on each, and somewhere in a 200ly gap between them, five unexplored systems that get a visit from a galaxy class starship. Suddenly we're not scratching our heads wondering "How did the Enterprise manage to answer a distress signal from that huge Federation colony when it's supposed to be exploring the uncharted regions of deep space?"
     
  5. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    Several sources mention the "treaty exploration zone". Combined with the Prime Directive (Reeves-Stevens') idea of trust worlds, I'm thinking the early UFP claimed a huge swath of space to set aside those trust worlds. The idea is that, when a world gets into space, worlds are set aside for them to colonize. In the novel, Talin IV had 48 worlds in a 25 parsec radius set aside for them. As mentioned above, the Organian treaty kinda supersedes that in at least quadrant 2, since the Klingons and UFP have to show who can develop a world better.
    They were probably unduly optimistic when they founded the UFP, and nationalistic pride forbids them admitting later they couldn't actually maintain their claim, so there's a lot of nominally federation space that's not really controlled.
    Keep the ideas coming.
     
  6. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That wouldn't contradict: the "treaty exploration zone" might simply be a collection of habitable systems in a particular region that are set aside for colonization efforts by corporations, institutions and private citizens/homesteaders. The space BETWEEN those systems may indeed remain unclaimed, much like the systems themselves could easily exist in obscure clusters between otherwise fully-developed worlds or even scattered here and there where they happened to have been discovered.

    That might give you a conception for why the Romulans and Klingons keep showing up in such weird places. Federation "claimed" worlds might be scattered here and there in relatively close proximity to some worlds claimed by the Klingons and Romulans. Some of those races may think to themselves that being flanked by Federation "colonies" is a strategic liability and do something sneaky or violent to discourage colonists from settling those worlds.

    And since I know it's coming, I'll bring it up early: a "borderless" Federation doesn't really present much of a problem from a defense standpoint since everyone IN the Federation lives in planetary systems anyway. You don't need to defend a vast 5000ly border around your territory; if you're worried about foreign invasion, you rely on your intelligence services to tell you if the bad guys are up to something, and if they ARE planning some trouble, you figure out what the target is and position your fleet to intercept them. An attempted Klingon invasion of Earth, for example, wouldn't be met at the Klingon-Federation border, but would probably be ambushed by a Federation task force near Tau Ceti or something. Even this wouldn't start a war, because the Klingons never actually violated Federation territory and Starfleet didn't violate theirs, and the high council would simply write it off as "A spirited brawl between warriors. What fun!"
     
  7. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, slanted regions may have differnt locations on difference slices of plan views of the galaxy, seen north galactic core "down."
     
  8. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Odd. I never noticed that STM used Jien's numbers before...
    Interesting work BTW :techman:
     
  9. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    This dry land thing is too wierd!
    Thanks! Got any suggestions?
     
  10. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Star Trek star charts is too small as the original series Enterprise travelled to Gothos 900LY and 500 Parsecs were traversed but Star Trtek maps has the ROmulan and Klingon Empires too far out as both were contacted in the 2150's as evidenced by Enterprise so maybe a combination of the 2 with facts from the episodes is in order. Warp Speeds need to be faster if Genesis is traversed in less than a day as according to STIII and ST Charts lists it as being 130LY. To cross it in less than a day means traversing the distance at 67000c or warp 10. Qu'onos is 90LY and was traversed from Earth at warp 4.5 giving a total speed of 7500c. For distances to the edge of the galaxy which the orignial series Enterprise traversed three times a subspace bridge could be used, this would also account for the enterprise's journey to the center of the Galaxy in Star Trek V. These subspace bridges are few and far between and temporary only which is why even the ore ships take 20 years to go to Delta Vega. In addition, maximum velocity doesn't mean neccessarily mean the fastest speed, but rather the fastest speed a ship can attain over a relative distance thus it would take the Enterprise D 2 Yrs 7 Months and 18 Hrs to traverse 7000Ly and the Starship Voyager 70 Years to traverse 70 000LY. In both cases a prolonged speed of warp 2.5 aprox. Therefore explored space in Archers time is 250LY, Explored space as of 2268 is 500LY with the other 500LY being unexplored, and 1500LY explored by 2364. Therefore the Deneb mentioned in Encounter at Farpoint is the same as the star is Alpha Cygni some 1400LY distant, and RIgel (Beta Orionis) is 773LY distant from Earth, you may want to place your Orion Colonies Zone of 100LY radius there or 200LY radius. It follows that Antares is the same as that one known as Alpha Scorpi some 619LY distant with traders bringing back Antarian glow water. Sheliak, which is 959LY has a sphere of influence extending to 500LY radius so the human colony settled when the sheliak expanded there sphere of influence there. DS9 therefore must be anywhere up to 1500LY and the Cadrdasian Union and The Ferengi Alliance must extend some of there territory into the 1500LY UFP Territory. The Tholians were mentioned also in the enterprise episode A Mirror Darkly. Does this help? Incidentally I am reworking the Star Trek Map, Have worked out Warp speeds for the Original series, movies and Next Gen onwards and have worked out Stardates conforming to everything offical on screen. I am preparing a book on stardates which should be in time for the 50th anniversary.
     
  11. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    ps I discount the animated series since it is not canon
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, first off, 500 parsecs is 1630 light years. Also, you're mistaking the borders of the Federation itself for the limits of the space its starships have explored. After all, it stands to reason that a nation interested in exploration would travel far beyond its own boundaries. The Vikings roved as far as Greenland and Newfoundland. The Chinese sailed as far as Africa. Magellan sailed clear around the world.

    Star Charts actually acknowledges this. On pp. 12-13 there's an outline labeled "Approximate Limit of Explored Space," and it's far huger than the tiny dot representing the Federation and its neighbors.


    Warp speeds in Trek have never been remotely consistent. It's generally assumed -- and Star Charts alludes to this -- that the actual speed of a given warp factor varies depending on local space and subspace conditions.


    It's spelled Qo'noS. The Q has much the same value as in Arabic. Putting a U after a Q is an English practice, and the accepted Anglicized spelling for Qo'noS is Kronos. (Or rather, "Kronos" was coined first and Marc Okrand then Klingonized it as Qo'noS.)


    That's a myth. See this thread.
     
  13. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yes but as the Federation explores unexplored space it stands to reason that eventually it incorporates this unexplored space into the federation, and yes 500 parsecs is 1630LY> As for local and subspace conditions this would indicate why Voyager would take 70 Years to get back home and almost 3 years for the enterprise D to cross 7000LY. If you look at the British Empire and Spanish Empires they incorporated new areas of land they explored into their respective Empires. It is also a given that warp speeds in general do have ideal speeds which can be attained under ideal conditions, and the ones from the 22nd-23rd Century are slower than the warp speeds of the 24th Century. According to Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda a new warp scale was implemented by the 24th Century making warps 1-9 faster than the previous warps 1-9. And even taking in spatial conditions one can still work out how fast the enterprise travelled to respective planets based on the time spent on the planets and in the episodes. For example, judging by the Grissom's landing party stay on Genesis, the enterprise reached that planet from Earth in under a day which the Star Trek Charts lists as being 130Ly distant.
     
  14. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    No, Richard Arnold, Star Trek's research consultant or exconsultant told me that Roddenberry was never happy with TAS and discounted it as canon. This doesn't mean to say that elements can't be used from it and have been such as the Caitian in Trek V
     
  15. Novak Senkovic

    Novak Senkovic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Gene Roddenberry died in 1991. Richard Arnold was fired from his Star Trek duties the very next day. So it's been nearly a quarter of a century since either of their opinions were relevant, and many of Roddenberry's successors have made TAS references in canonical productions. Please read the thread I linked to.
     
  17. loghaD

    loghaD Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    With regard to Gothos and the distance traveled:
    On top of what Christopher mentions about the Federation borders vs. the edge of explored space, I think we must also consider two other things:

    • Space is three-dimensional: The Milky Way's thin stellar disk is about 2000 light-years thick on average. I don't know exactly how thick it is near the Sun, or how close we are to the top/bottom of the disk, but if the distance to either the top or bottom is close to 900 light-years or more, you can have Gothos 900 light-years away and still have it fall a cyliner with a tiny radius.
    • The Federation may not grow symmetrically: Space is big, and the further out you get, and at distances less than about 1000 light-years, its volume grows as the cube of the distance from your starting point.
      So, with a constant rate of exploration, if it takes 100 years to explore all the space within 100 light-years form Earth, it will take you about 700 additional years (800 years total) to explore everything with 200 light-years form Earth.
      Even if the rate of exploration has doubled in that time, it will take about 350 additional years.
      However, I suspect that the exploration is not symmetric at all; Starfleet probably selects a direction and tries to survey everything within a certain distance from that direction until they've gotten far enough to warrant a new starbase or shipyard.
      So, even if Gothos was near the edge of Federation space at the time, that doesn't mean the Federation border is anything like a sphere 900 light years in radius. Indeed, Star Charts suggests that it is quite oblong.


    Spot on explanation!

    Interestingly, however, Memory Alpha claims Marc Okrand was the one who first suggested the name Kronos. If true, it's possible that the Qo'noS spelling came first, or that they emerged in parallel; presumably, he's the only one who knows.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I dunno about that Memory Alpha entry. It doesn't attribute the specific claim about Okrand contributing the name, and it feels like the passage is talking more about the unused names he proposed for "Sins of the Father" than about TUC itself, like some Wiki editor jumped to the conclusion that Qo'noS was one of those names.
     
  19. loghaD

    loghaD Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hmm, fair enough; I feel the statement in the article makes it quite explicit, but it's true that it's not quoted. I guess that's one more reason I need to get the TNG Blu-Rays.
     
  20. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Funny you should post this now, we were just discussing something very similar over on this thread!
    http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/star...isruption-technology-alteration.277476/page-5

    The biggest problem in importing TOS speeds into the TNG era isn't TNG (which often flew vast distances, especially in its early seasons) or DS9 (which at times seemed absurdly close to Earth, from the travel times) but that dratted USS Voyager and it's supposed top cruising speed of Warp 9.975, along with the stated return trip of 70,000 ly in 75 years. However, what if the problem is the starship herself?

    Hailed from the start as a new and high-tech starship, Voyager probably sported more types of experimental technology than just the bio-neural gel packs (and which almost crippled the ship when they caught space-flu). Specifically, I'm thinking of those teeny-tiny nacelles, almost half the proportional size of the ones on the Enterprise-D. Never designed as a long range explorer, the Intrepid class may have been the testbed for a new type of nacelle - smaller but more technologically advanced, able to fully utilise the power output of a super sized "tower" warp core thanks to special <tech> components. Unfortunately, when these were burned out by the Caretaker's displacement wave (both had incompatible energy emissions) the diminutive nacelles were reduced to a fraction of their former propulsive power. Like the gel packs the <tech> components could not be repaired when damaged, and spares were only available from properly equipped Starfleet bases - not normally an issue in Voyager's assigned patrol area, but a massive problem when on the other side of the galaxy! The 9.975 Warp Core remained intact, but the warp coils themselves could only handle such power outputs for limited periods of time and even then at much reduced efficiency compared to their more traditional equivalents (see quoted sprinting speeds in Manoeuvres and The 37s).
    Incidentally, we can see that the "small but advanced" type of nacelle never really caught on - the more robust and traditional type (big = fast) is still in effect on board the Enterprise-E

    A final point - Voyager herself only averaged about 400ly a year for most of the series - the rest of her progress was made using helping hands and shortcuts. This really wasn't a speedy ship!