STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.

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Grade the movie...

  1. A+

    18.7%
  2. A

    20.7%
  3. A-

    13.1%
  4. B+

    11.1%
  5. B

    8.0%
  6. B-

    4.2%
  7. C+

    5.4%
  8. C

    5.1%
  9. C-

    3.5%
  10. D+

    1.5%
  11. D

    1.6%
  12. D-

    1.3%
  13. F

    5.7%
  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plus it's kind of hard to see Uhura as weak in a movie where she stabs a Klingon in the nads*.

    *No it wasn't his leg as last I checked Klingons have there legs in the same place as humans and she stabbed the general area where a males private parts are located.
     
  2. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Yes; Her scene with the Klingons, and the scene where Kirk is dying at the end. Of course, her relationship doesn't maker her submissive, she's an equal, so I'm not sure why her relationship with Spock somehow denotes that she's less than the person she is because she has a loved one in close proximity to her.

    Yes, we call these emotions. Humans have them. Note that Kirk also talks about Spock. Are they having a lover's quarrel as well? Or is it that they both know something's wrong with their mutual friend?

    Hold on, there. She does. According to the dialogue, she has tried to confront him on the issue a number of times. It's Spock who won't discuss it.

    You're interpreting a scene by which you are misremembering. The reason she was speaking to Spock at that moment was because he seemed to have a death wish. He was refusing to discuss it with her. Keep in mind that even though Jim Kirk first asked whether they were going to discuss it there, even he opened up a few moments later agreeing with her, so it was on his mind as well. Between the two of them, Spock finally opened up about it, and he continued the discussion. You're laying the blame on Uhura, when they were all losing focus. Why should she get the blame when they all share in it?

    Keep in mind that even professionals have lapses of judgment. This is nothing new. Our heroes aren't perfect automatons who always make the right choices. If anything, STID is a great example of our heroes making wrong choices, and having to own up to them. Spock and Uhura's conflict fits into the overall theme of the film.

    Apparently there are scenes of the movie of which I am not aware, because at no time do I see Spock as the reason she is about to be stabbed. Let's not blame the victim for the aggressor's actions, please. The Klingon was going to kill her anyway. What she did was buy time, and she did a damned good job of being strong and independent when she walked right up to a group of aggressive, violent Klingons who had no qualms about ending a human life. She was courageous, if anything.

    If that Klingon would have had honor, she would have been fine, so let's not ignore that either.

    James T. Kirk.
    Spock.

    These two men were more unprofessional than the rest of the crew combined. Why the hate on for Uhura? Seriously, you're laying blame at her feet that simply does not belong there. You seem to get upset at her for being human. It's as if you've never seen human beings react to stress, or watch as a loved one was put right in death's path.

    It's almost like you're afraid Uhura can't cry, worry, or have fear, because it will make her look weak. Guess what? Kirk cries, worries, and has fears. Spock cries, worries, and has fears. Why can't Uhura? What makes her different that she can't fear for her lover? He certainly fears for her, and even says so. He cries for his best friend, and goes to get revenge. Professional? We still talking about that? Eh?

    Cut Uhura some slack. She's not perfect. She's a human being, with human frailties. Just because she's a woman doesn't mean she has to be super strong all the time. She's allowed to cry, too.

    No need for an apology! :)

    She has good aim!
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I really think you're reaching for something to complain about.
     
  4. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    x10

    Uhura is, at best, a secondary character (tertiary is often equally appropriate). That's it. That's all she has been and, really, that's all she ever NEEDS to be for Star Trek. Can a good Trek story be told where she is the primary character? Sure. That can be done for any of the characters. But it should never be expected, let alone required. Star Trek (no : followed by an acronym) has two lead characters, two secondary characters, three secondary/tertiary characters and scores of minor/incidental characters. It was not conceived as an "ensemble piece" and while it can be written that way, it seems a lot more forced than when done in the :TNG, etc. versions. And when TNG went to movies, the ensemble format began to crumble (though, to me, that often felt as forced as the reverse with TOS).

    As such, in a film franchise, the non-leads are rather limited in the scope they can occupy. In a series, there would be a lot more room for non-lead characters to shine and gain in importance. In order for that to change, they'd have to go with a LOTR model and have a gigantic story spread over three very long films to give room to everyone to have a meatier role--I wouldn't hold my breath (a return to TV with a new set of actors is far more likely, relatively speaking--I don't see that happening anytime soon either).

    Is Uhura the strongest female character on film in the past year? Hardly. Is this fact a catastrophic setback for women's rights and feminism as an ideology? No. It is simply a film where the two leads are male, all the female characters are supporting characters of varying importance and, well, c'est la vie.
     
  5. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    Totally nailed it.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I hear you. This was really symptomatic of a general tendency in STiD, in which I think there really was an attempt to raise the level of the writing from ST09 -- but it winds up consisting of half-measures at best* because they're simultaneously trying to preserve ST09's pulper-than-Flash Gordon-drinking-a-smoothie vibe. So there's a gesture here towards "yes, it's kind of weird that he was promoted to Captain so hastily," but it winds up being just a formality.

    Same with the "intricate" plot that winds up just being hard to make any sense of, and the "topical" touches that wind up coming off as shallow, and the villains that show touches of personality and complex motivation but then lapse into B-movie mustache-twirlers. And I think that might be a big part of why the whole business comes off the worse when it puts itself in the same frame as an older film that succeeded at just simple, solid storytelling.

    It's funny because Uhura, by dint of her relationship with Spock, is effectively the third leg of the NuTrek "triumvirate." Yet she doesn't really benefit from it very much. The scene with her deciding to be the bitchy girlfriend as they're about to go into action on Kronos was fucking ridiculous -- say what you will about the relative marginality of Nichols' Uhura, she was rarely shown behaving stupidly or immaturely and there was good reason for that.
     
  8. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What bothers me most about the movie, despite repeated attempts to paint me as malcontent, is the lack of characterization. Scotty is a comedic ham even at his most serious. Uhura is nothing more than Spock's girlfriend in this movie. Sulu is just polishing to get command of the ship (he probably will be off the ship before the end of the next movie). If JJ says "it's about the relationships" and then clearly spends time making an action film about the story, then it's a bait-and-switch.

    If it is truly about the characters, then the relationship between Spock and Kirk should take center stage. I understand what they are trying to do in the movie, have Spock feel the love for Kirk missing in the last movie, but I don't see it. Kirk is loyal to Spock because he doesn't want to lose a crew member. He then hints at a more personal reason. It isn't earned in this movie. There is emotion in Kirk that is never explained. It comes off as a need to be liked by Spock. They are too busy blowing things up for it to make any sense. Kirk is not ready to command the Enterprise, something that was realized in the first draft of this script. He won't be a great person if this keeps up. He doesn't know the rules in order to know which ones should be broken. He acts on gut instinct alone, and that is a problem with me. Kirk was well-trained and his advantage over the rule book that was Spock, was his ability to size up a situation and take calculated risks. When all options were exhausted, then he went with his gut. They don't seem to be making Kirk very likable or competent.

    But even if it's driven by the story, the story fails to engage. Outside of Admiral Marcus creating a super ship, there is nothing of note or makes any logical sense. It's all a bunch of tropes we have seen over and over again. Try to disarm the torpedo, have it almost explode, check. Our heroes can do anything, even when it appears logically unsound (Scotty approaching a high-security base with no one recognizing it, being able to get aboard a ship without realizing it, etc.), check.

    And then the nods, ripoffs during the key moments of the movie. Spock is about to die (The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few), Kirk dies instead of Spock (KHAAAAAAN!!!), Khan's lack of a plan or reason why he is telling Kirk what he is doing (unless he can tell that Scotty is on the ship, will somehow get him on the Vengeance, and then he can blow up the Enterprise OR he plans to kill Kirk and crew without anyone becoming aware and they use the Enterprise to re-start his work in Eugenics OR he is just trying to get Kirk to hand over the torpedoes to him BUT he has to somehow know that Kirk will get the torpedoes or his 72 friends could end up on different ships in different corners of the universe (if not destroyed)).

    The movie got worse with each time I watched it. It's crap and it's crap that looks pretty and moves fast so it's pleasing crap. Tropes and lack of character consistency. A story as flimsy as they come.
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk likes Spock and wants to be his friend. What more explanation is necessary?
     
  10. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why does he like him?
     
  11. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Why does Kirk like Spock in TOS? Or Bashir like O'Brien in DS9? Why do you like your best friend?
     
  12. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My friends and I have fun together. Kirk and Spock have continually been at odds. Because of that there has to be a moment of respect.

    My friends have qualities that I admire. They've shown me trust, respect, and loyalty. They have shown how kind they can be to me and to others. They have been generous and helped me through difficult times. They rely on me, I rely on them. They find me to be generous and a "good friend." We "take care of each other." That is a big part of our relationship. We BS in the morning over coffee and cigarettes. That's bonding time. If we need anything, the others would be there for us.

    We have talked about why we are friends. We have done things and explained that it is because we are friends. As we have grown closer, we have talked more openly about where we stand. There's open communication. There's shared experiences. There is reciprocal love.

    I can pinpoint when we became close friends. It was around the time that one of us went through back surgery and I was kind, asking every day if there was something I could do. We had time together, but that's really when things hardened into a friendship. Before that, we drifted into each other, got mad at one-another, and we remained acquaintances.

    Open communication, trust, generosity, time spent together, love--all of that is at the basis for our relationship.

    What this has to do with Kirk and Spock I'll never know, except to say that Kirk has very limited contact with Spock and that contact has been contentious. Comradery can build when you face death together, but that can't be the sole unstated reason in a movie that promises to be about relationships.

    EDIT: In TOS, the respect of differences, led to a friendship (Spock and Kirk playing chess in their first scene together, "Not Chess, Mister Spock, Poker"). As they went through trials (like Spock almost killing Kirk in Amok Time), there friendship deepened. It took them 15 years to get to the point that these two do in 6 months (one of them dying and doing everything they can to save one-another).
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    So I take it you believe Spock and McCoy in TOS genuinely were enemies? Kirk and Spock bicker like an old married couple in ID (limited contact? Spock's been his first officer for a year!), but both clearly hold affection for each other, as did Spock and McCoy in the classic show.
     
  14. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    HaventGotALife, if you feel that any post or series of posts has been unfairly and personally critical of you, then the way to bring attention to that is via a PM to the forum mod(s) or by clicking the 'Notify Moderator' button [ [​IMG] ] on the post(s) in question.

    Please don't do this, though:
    It's playing the victim card, and not much better than the trick of beginning a post with "I'll probably get flamed for this, but... " in hopes of getting flamed.

    Say whatever you want to say about the movie, and expect that others may hold differing opinions concerning the points you raise. That's the way it's supposed to work.
     
  15. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They bicker. Kirk hits Spock on the shoulder--for no reason. That's all we know. We don't see anything. Bones had moments where he confessed to Kirk his appreciation of Spock--cared for him. But the touchstones of their relationship aren't there.

    Spock's death scene tied the movie together--the differences between Kirk (lie and cheat out of death) and Spock (admit defeat, limit the damage, especially if it's only one person). It talked of their friendship, calling back to the cabin scene, it talked of their friendship long before he was killed off. The closest we get in this movie?

    "Do you know why I went back for you?"

    No, I don't. Spock goes after Kirk for reprogramming the simulator to beat the Kobiashi Maru. He argues with Spock until Spock takes his side. He gets booted off the ship because Spock feels he is a liability (a married couple?). Kirk emotionally compromised Spock, after arguing with him, to get command so he could go after Nero and not rejoin the rest of the fleet. Spock told him he was going with him to Nero's ship. He gets Spock to take command of the Red Matter ship. Kirk, then saves Spock's life. He complains that Spock wrote a report that contradicted the Captain's Log. He gets mad because Spock doesn't feel anything. He wants to "rip his bangs off." Kirk says that he did what Spock would do when he's explaining why he sacrificed his life. Then Spock goes ape and tries to kill Khan for killing Kirk.

    Now, does that sound like they had any time to bond? Maybe, at the most, on Nero's ship. But there's nothing in what we see, except to assume that they bonded because we've seen Star Trek before, for why they have bonded. Instead of having Leonard Nimoy talking to Zachary Quinto in the final scenes of Star Trek, maybe they should've had a scene with Kirk expressing to Bones his feelings. Or maybe Spock starts to cry when all of this hits him and Kirk comforts him. Or maybe Kirk is the one crying, maybe realizing he's unprepared to be Captain.

    But there's nothing.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There's nothing to indicate when or why they became friends in "Where No Man..." either, but we are clued in pretty quickly that they are friends. They were together for roughly a year in "Amok Time" when Kirk decides to risk his career and his one true love (commanding a starship) to take Spock to Vulcan. The characters may have well had a similar shaky early relationship in TOS that we simply weren't privy too.

    You say there's nothing there that indicates a growing friendship and I disagree. There's Spock still wanting to serve with Kirk even after their early difficulties in Star Trek 2009, there's Kirk risking his command and saving Spock on Niburu, there's the excitement as they walk to Pike's office when discussing the possible five-year mission, there's Kirk still wanting Spock as his XO once he regained command.

    Damning two films because they have different time limitations to tell a story vs. seventy-nine live-action episodes, twenty-two animated episodes and six movies seems incredibly silly to me.
     
  17. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Who needs to see anything when we can just be told!
     
  18. mendelin

    mendelin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Just realized, why I'm uncomfortable with nuTrek movies.

    Kirk&Spock deep friendship was a cornerstone of TOS-show and TOS-movies. This friendship was explained and expressed by different ways: thoughtful scripts, sincere dialogs, chemistry between actors. People, who made TOS-shows, were more soulful, with deep understanding of friendship, love, humanity.
    Now in nuTrek they can't feel and express it, they can only talk about it. May be, that's why nuTrek is more a parody than a real Star Trek movie. Cool, colorful, expensive parody.
     
  19. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's really that destiny angle that harms it for me. They're told by Spock Prime that they're meant to be friends, so it's like "we're friends huh" "yeah". It already doesn't come off like genuine friendship to me, but with the whole destiny angle it only really drives home how false their friendship feels. It's like how the Star Wars prequels try to drive home that Anakin and Padme are in love, but I'm not getting any of that no matter how much they say "I'm so in love with you!".
     
  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I guess we must define humanity and friendship very differently if you can't find it in the new movies.

    But of course, if you don't like something, you're not exactly likely to view any aspect of it in a positive light.