Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.
That was a great film.
If we're still talking about Into Darkness, I'd like to share my opinion.
As a sequel to the 09 reboot movie, I thought it was very good. Compared to the six episodes of the Original Series I thought there was no comparison. Let me tell you why:
- the reboots are literally an AU world. Kirk doesn't have a Dad to raise him, Spock is a bit more emotional, and there's less 'exploring'.
- they are from different time periods
- Benedict Cumberbatch. I am a proud fangirl and his appearance left me in tears
That's why I value both the reboots and original material. Hope this is okay to have posted here
I am okay with the depiction of a galaxy at war, which is what is being built in these films. The original series implied that the 2240s and 2250s were, also, a time when the galaxy was at war.
I am less okay with the depiction of James Kirk. I am still struggling with believing him to be a competent captain, much less a captain who has earned the right to be the master of the Federation flagship. The TOS Kirk earned his promotion to master of the Enterprise after proving himself as the captain of a lesser ship.
Source? Because nowhere in the TOS episodes or movies is such a command mentioned. And yes I know about Dehner's line from Where No Man... and find it vague at best because the Enterprise could have been the command she mentions.
Rather be a "fan" than a sycophant for Abrams and co.
And that will be enough of references to "fans" and sycophants, thank you.
Everyone here is a fan, and we ought to be able to differ in opinion without taking things personally and without making things personal. If that cannot be managed, then perhaps better to refrain from saying anything at all.
In fact that was most likely the intent of the line, explaining how Kirk happens to have his best friend under his command on the Enterprise. So the pilot pretty much establishes the Enterprise as his first command.
I guess if I'm a sycophant because I don't get upset over a two-hour movie not living up to someone's narrow vision of what Star Trek is, then so be it.
I really enjoyed this movie. It's not without its faults, of course (I still have a hard time swallowing Kirk as captain with so little experience). However, the wonderful performance by Cumberbatch allows me to shrug my shoulders a lot. I still think the story would have been just as good with Harrison as another augment, rather than Khan. I think Cumberbatch as a villain was IMO much better than Montalban ever was, both in terms of writing and acting, but then I've never liked TWoK much. The role reversals (Spock's "Khaaaaan!" and Kirk's "dying") did get a smile from me, as intended.
What is the exact line?
If the Enterprise is his first command, wouldn't have she said Enterprise? I am of the opinion she would have. She didn't. She said first command. The implication is that there have been other commands. The number of commands was never stated in the canon; it was stated in TMoST that Kirk's first command was a destroyer.
I know that some of you will argue semantics, and I am expecting this, but know this - I am reading what she said literally. I see nothing vague in her comment. What I do see is people relying on ideas that arose later - ideas such as Kirk becoming the youngest captain to serve aboard a starship and that this was his first command. This idea became fixed in the ST Chronology and on the Star Trek website.
I think the thing to remember is that in the time of the first series was that starships weren't a dime a dozen as they became in the later series and movies. They referred specifically to one class of ship, identified as the Starship Class (aka Constitution-class), which were considered the top-of-the-line vessels. They were small in number, and captains had to earn the right to command such a vessel. These vessels came with additional responsibilities, and had larger crew sizes than other ships in the fleet. This was repeated often in the series, by those who successfully commanded such a vessel (Stone, Kirk, Pike) and by those who failed to command such a vessel (Merik). Kirk earned the command by having commanded an earlier vessel, of which we know little.
I am going out on a limb here for equivalency, but the closest parallel to the situation that was described with the Starship Class ships would be the Nimitz-class and Ford-class Aircraft Carriers. To become a captain of an aircraft carrier would be the pinnacle of many captain's careers. All captains of carriers would have served as captains of lesser ships prior to assuming command. Aircraft carriers are the largest ships in the fleet, with each ship like a city at sea, and the captain's responsibilities are greater.
What about Mitchell? We don't know if Mitchell accepted his friend's request - he possibly did accept it. We do know that Mitchell did serve under Kirk on the Enterprise.
Summation: Dehner didn't say Enterprise - she said first command. The Enterprise is an unique ship - a very special ship - that wouldn't be given to a newly promoted captain. For that person to earn the command, they had to prove themselves, which Kirk did on an earlier command. A source that was in contact with the production team would later identify this ship as a destroyer.
Problem being, every other Starship-class commander is shown to be older or higher ranked than Kirk.
Plus, there isn't a whole lot of time for Kirk to have commanded another ship. If Starfleet is a five-year school, then you have a man who graduated at 23. We know from The Deadly Years that Kirk is 34 and likely took command of the Enterprise at no later than age 31. Which leaves just eight years for him to climb the ranks and I can't believe he was accelerated rank-to-rank every step of the way.
Unless someone has something more than Dehner's line from the actual episodes, then I tend to believe that the Enterprise was Kirk's first command.
Like Saavik, Kirk was a lieutenant while still at the Academy.
I just found an excellent review of STID!
The TNG crew review this film and boy do they hit the mark!
I care as much about their review as I do if the TOS cast did a review. Which is zero.
Aside from great humour there are some nuggets of truth buried in the great works of General Grin. It's the most humorous review I've yet seen of STID!
I saw STID again for the second time and I think I enjoyed it more the second time around. I would still give it a B-, but I didn't walk out of the theater angry like I did the first time. Heck, I even stayed for the credits and realized that this score was better than the Star Trek 2009 score. At least it didn't feel repetitive like that one did. I did have a few other thoughts:
1) What exactly was the point of the Noel Clarke scene? I understand it was to save his daughter, yet he then blows himself and the Data Archive up like 5 minutes later. Was it to show that the regeneration blood worked, which we saw with the Tribble later in the film? I was a little confused on why he was in the movie.
2) I really liked Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan, but I still think the movie would have been better had they actually made Khan a good guy. The Negociations with Marcus and and the Space fly scene were probably my favorite scenes in the movie because they showed how powerful the Vengeance was, and it was a good direction the movie should have gone into. Again, my main problem with this movie is we get this original universe after the distruction as Vulcan and the very next movie the Abrams gang goes back to the WOK well, which brings me to number 3.
3) I still didn't like the KAHHHHHNNNN scream and the death did feel empty, but I did like the scene between Spock and Kirk before Kirk "died". I just wish we had gotten to know these characters a whole lot more to make that scene feel really special. TWOK had like 20 years of backstory, this movie only had 2 movies or about 4-5 years.
4) If they were going to do homages to back films, one of the things that I thought today was the very end scene when they get the New Enterprise. One of the reasons I love TUC was because of the ending scene where they beam down to Khitomer to the end where Kirk says Second Star to the Right, and straight on till morning. I would have loved it if that line was here in this movie, after Spock asks where they want to go. I would have choked up a bit and it would bring everything full circle. The last time we saw the main crew, they were going back home to be decommissioned. How about we see this same crew (But different actors) going to figurative neverland, because that's what this 5 year journey is isn't it? If they're paying homages to movies, I think something like this would have really paid a great homage to Star Trek 6 and it would have raised my grade from a B- to maybe B+. I wanted this movie to have Heart and other than the Pike/Kirk scenes, it really didn't.
This movie did do, again, what it did before. It makes me wish we had a TV show set in this universe. I actually like these group of characters, from Zaldana's Uhura to Pegg's charming Scotty and now we got Alice Eve who was great as Carol Marcus. I don't want to wait every 4-5 years for a new movie.
There were a couple of clever bits, and then a couple of others which I thought dragged on too long - Picard's "First Duty" speechifying, to name one. Needs a little work yet.
I lost it at the ending.
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