Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.
For me, one word of dialogue imploded the whole JJ-verse:
It was an explosion of emotion from somebody who, quite literally, lost everything important in his life. Go through half of what he has done and see how you turn out.
A few more things...
I think STID has very little going for it and is surprisingly lightweight. There are few consequences, this altered universe isn't really explored at all save for one scene where Spock addresses his emotional state with Uhura (that really worked in my opinion and was unquestionably the movie's strongest scene and the most relevant). But this film is all about emotion, but it doesn't hold up to well with the character set-ups and the muddled plot throughout. It's so muddled I was seeing contradictions and holes everywhere, and that has never happened when I've watched a Star Trek film before for the first couple of times.
I don't even go out of my way to look for plotholes, I just instead follow the story's flow of logic. Kirk so passionately going out of his way to break the rules and cover-up his rule-breaking was the first red flag. Put it this way, when I watched ST 09 for the first time there was a logic to it all, and only a couple of times did I think to myself that something didn't make any sense. With STID that has been multiplied several times!
There's implausible (the sort you can overlook cos its fiction) and really implausible. ST 09 was a better movie because it did crazy things, it had the balls to destroy Vulcan and Romulus, it had the balls to pair up old Spock with the new one. In ST 09 there were real consequences and it was a bold story and sure it had its OTT moments, but it didn't rely on them so much unlike STID. Though Spock/Uhura was probably the first warning sign that contrived scenes would be used for the sake of eliciting an emotion regardless of continuity or logical character development.
I don't really care if STID is just a remake of TWOK, but I do feel STID had such wasted potential and it should have played to this universe's strengths by building on what happened in ST 09. Heck they could have made two additional films or even a trilogy concerning perhaps a war between the Klingons and the Federation, and how with the loss of Vulcan the Federation isn't in such a good shape. Or something along those lines.
Did JJ and his teams of writers really spend two or three years trying to find the best possible script, or the one which was the most rife with emotion and soap-operas?
Myself, I can't understand how such a minor element could bring down an entire franchise for anyone.
Yeah, I thought it was over the top on the first viewing, but that's it. The very next shot makes you forget it immediately.
They're Vulcans, and even though Spock is half Vulcan, that outwardly cold exterior rarely thaws. Emotionally and with respective to bonds (because I'm not sure how Vulcans feel love or attachment to others) there are three people who are the most important to Spock: Sarek, Spock's mother and Uhura.
If Uhura had died at the hands of Khan, I could buy into Spock's meltdown because I have the feeling Spock relies on Uhura a lot more than he lets on. But the emotional connection between NuSpock and NuKirk just isn't strong enough or deep enough to warrant such a reaction. Just how long has been Kirk been captain? A few months, a year maybe?
At most we know that Kirk and Spock are colleagues who have a respect for one other, though for the most part both consider their counterpoint a thorn in their side. We need to remember that the Kirk and Spock in this universe have a friendship which is considerably less substantial than the one between Kirk and Spock in the prime universe.
So for Spock to emotionally crack like that, he would have to have a pretty deep bond with Kirk to elicit such a response. But if Spock considers Kirk a colleague whom he respects for the most part, that emotional connection ain't there. So did Spock crack because he saw another person, another crew member die? Was it one death to much? I'm just saying the friendship between Kirk and Spock seems to have been a little overstated and perhaps exaggerated on the part of critics and viewers alike.
Finally, it was admiral Marcus who placed the Enterprise in such a desperate situation with the warp drive not functioning, it was admiral Marcus who opened fire on the Enterprise crippling this ship. It was NOT Khan who inflicted such damage on the Enterprise, so why didn't Spock scream 'Marcusssss!!!' or something of that sort?
In fact I'm surprised by how many people have overlooked this!
I agree with Belz, Spock screaming Khan was stupid. But Spock fighting Khan on a hovering vehicle was even more stupider! Both though weren't enough to destroy the JJ-verse. Though I shudder to think how dumbed down the third movie will become, by then it will become that obvious!
But I see where khan2 is coming from, perhaps it was the final straw...
Please do not put words in my mouth. You know full well that this isn't what I said. I said it was over the top on the first viewing. I didn't say stupid. On the second viewing, however, it wasn't that bad.
That is also not what I said. You are misrepresenting me, which is bad form. I said it made you forget it, which in this case means the next scene is pretty awesome (the Vengeance crashing down on Earth).
Never said any of that, neither did I misrepresent you.
This I can overlook because TOS was exploring the Vulcan psyche and was still defining Spock's character.
The Abramsverse is simply playing "what if?" What if Spock's homeworld is destroyed and mother killed? How does that effect a race that is dedicated to logic but has volatile emotions lurking just under the surface?
The Abrams team have done a fine job of it and seem to understand Vulcans in general, and Spock in particular, far better than many "fans".
It was Khan who launched the final salvo against the Enterprise after beaming Kirk Scotty and Carol back aboard. It was this attack that sent it falling into the atmosphere. The Enterprise was in pretty good shape until then.
What I loved was Spock's facial expression when giving Khan the Vulcan nerve pinch. When you couple his "Khaaaaan!" yell with that fight scene, it all works.
Never said any of what ? I was quoting your post.
So over on Trekmovie..Bob Orci is saying no project would take precedence over writing a 50th anniversary Star Trek movie...and he is currently talking to the studio about writing it.
Orci also seems to be revealing the movie was more of a George W Bush/Cheney parable than is generally supposed. I thought of Admiral Marcus immediately as a Cheney character...paranoid, militaristic, pre-emptively violent and with power... Secretly starts an unjust war (Klingons may be militaristic, but there was no hint their decimated planet would allow them to attack anyone in the near future).
One of the issues people had with this movie was that "exploration" was missing. I saw on demand the movie "Europa Report", which is about exploration. It's a good movie, and, for me, proves that exploration can be entertaining and intense.
Does a 50th anniversary story imply "all encompassing?" If so, does such a story require the presence of JLP? If so, is it possible to have JLP without the Borg?
I've mentioned this a few times, but may as well throw it out there again for the hell of it:
This Means War was a pretty awful film. But Hardy and Pine's bro chemistry was fantastic, the film's only real redeeming value. I've also heard/read reports that the two have since become really good mates.
You could pick up the script for Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World and transpose it to the 22nd, 23rd or 24th "Star Trek" series. A wonderful, exciting, entertaining exploration movie.
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