Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.
Sounds pretty savage to me.
Reading how that scene plays out in the novelisation was fantastic. I was very disappointed that the comic version didn't wander wider than the movie script. His torture was actually fairly methodical from what I recall but he just ran out of time. Even so, it would have been smarter to beam the scientists up to the Reliant to let someone else carry on the torture while Khan took care of business.
But if Marcus was that intent on bumping off Kahn and starting a war, then why didn't he check these advanced torpedoes? I mean if Kahn designed them and now that Kahn had gone rogue, then Marcus would have checked or ordered someone to check to see if these torpedoes would do the job (and actually had warheads in them!).
And even if Kahn had fooled Marcus how did he secretly move 82 people out of a heavily guarded complex and into a different one, and then remove the warheads of these torpedoes and place his people in them without anyone noticing? But then if Kahn could move his people without anyone noticing, why not beam them over to some remote location (as Kahn must have the technological know-how if he really is this smart and cunning) and revive them and escape? What's with the torpedo malarkey?
It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?
Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.
I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.
It's up there (and goes beyond) with Sisko committing attempted genocide on those Maquis worlds, Picard and the crew just watching as a planet's atmosphere burns and kills the inhabitants while doing nothing about it! So Star Trek has had its muddled moments and occasionally totally destroys its characters with badly thought-out plots and episodes. But STID goes one step further.
Whether the gymnastics it takes are acceptable or not is up to each individual viewer. I, personally, had a blast all four times I saw Into Darkness.
Is it a perfect movie? No. But it sure is fun to watch.
This was covered in dialog (someththing like this).
Khan: "Kirk. Your still alove old friend."
Kirk: "Still. old friend. Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target."
Khan: "Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral."
(beams up genesis device).
David: "They wouldn't dare take it !!!"
Kirk: "Khan. You have Genesis, but you don't have me. You were going to kill ME khan. You're going to have to come down here. Your going to HAVE to COME DOWN HERE !!!"
Khan: "I've done far worse that kill you. I've hurt you. I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive, buried alive."
Kirk: "KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN !!!!!"
(Cut to khan relishing in Kirk's scream and defeat.)
Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.
The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it. The whole movie Khan simply couldn't wait to kill Kirk and then right at the end he decides "just kidding!"
But this is NuKhan, so while similar to the Khan of the Prime universe, this movie distorted his traits and attributes. He now really is a superhuman, who does the whole cliched villain gets captured thing and his emotions are now supercharged and electrified like pretty all of the main characters. Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain. So while Kahn can act and feel threatening, you just have to realise how stupid and convoluted his plan is (and what was his plan after all of that; free his people, start a Klingon/Federation war or both?) and that just really dilutes this character no matter how threatening he can be.
Are you kidding?
Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.
I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.
This is a wider problem of them making the transporters too universally useful. If they had maintained the restriction that you could only beam someone up with a clear, attuned, communicator signal adjacent to their person then Khan would not be able to beam any Enterprise crew up. That doesn't hold up so well in TWoK, since Kirk picks up Chekov's communicator to shout at Khan though...
Nah I haven't seen TWOK, but people were talking up this the new Kahn and for a villain he was average, he would have been better if the plot were a little more watertight. Even if I had seen TWOK I wouldn't really care if there was any deviation, it's a new universe so different things are going to happen. When I watched STID I went from considering it Star Trek to thinking it to be a really funny comedy given how laughably bad and convulted it all was, and then finally realising this was just a bad movie period.
STID has nothing to offer if you start thinking about it and if you could detach yourself from the incessant action scenes and weird plot twists whilst watching it. In that way STID is a very weird film, it has no concept of pacing, it seems to shy away from quiet moments and thoughtful inflection and to me that is the clearest sign yet that JJ Abrams knew this story was a pile of convoluted garbage that would not hold up. So he had to distract, bamboozle and wow everyone with soap opera moments, action sequence after action sequence and plot twists that made no real sense. STID is a decent action film, but it so fragmented and there is nothing truly memorable (aside from Carol in her underwear) or thought-provoking.
The flaws are so numerous and so obvious I'm surprised so many people overlook them (even the critics). So maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to watching new films, or perhaps every ones standards have reached rock bottom. So what was considered a stupid movie twenty years ago is now considered deep, thought-provoking and intelligent.
It's a real mystery to me why so many enjoy STID, it's such a mystery that I really do need it spelt out to me concerning what exactly is so great and amazing about this film. Honest to God I really do not see it!
Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.
I have and there were stupid moments in many of the movies, but with most of them you could explain them away. And plot holes aside the characterization and depth was just better full stop, so even ignoring the plot holes what makes STID so great when the characters are all cartoon and extreme versions of the TOS ones, and the universe is a really LITERAL interpretation of the prime one.
Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie. So what has STID got when you can't really apply logic to this film?
I mean if our main characters (Kirk, Spock and Kahn) really have so much depth, could anyone describe these characters, their motivations, history and attributes in more than 1000 words? I mean you could do that with all the important characters in the Trek series (heck even some of the secondary ones in DS9!), and a good film (any good film) is such that you can write an awful lot about the important characters if they have depth or the plot has many layers to it (like Inception for instance).
This pretty much ends the discussion.
Thread on The Wrath of Khan:
Will he then be allowed to not like STID?
Why do you get testy when people defend this film? Anyone can like or dislike any film they chose. When they put their reasons up on a public message board, then they are inviting folks to discuss those reasons.
I wasn't talking about TWOK I was talking about STID.
I know which movie you were talking about. I just thought maybe you should go see how many holes and bits of illogic the fans of this board were able to spot in The Wrath of Khan.
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